Orgasmic Farmer Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 No that looks like a great piece of heath robinson engineering. Top marks that man. On subject of your clutch. They did change the fork I take it as this may have been holed and would account for the lack of movement should they have reused the old one. Very common. Unfortunately if they didn't change it it means the gearbox has to come out again. In that case make sure you get someone to strengthen the new one before you put it on by welding a piece of flat bar across the rear behind the pivot point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul64 Posted January 11, 2009 Share Posted January 11, 2009 No that looks like a great piece of heath robinson engineering. Top marks that man.On subject of your clutch. They did change the fork I take it as this may have been holed and would account for the lack of movement should they have reused the old one. Very common. Unfortunately if they didn't change it it means the gearbox has to come out again. In that case make sure you get someone to strengthen the new one before you put it on by welding a piece of flat bar across the rear behind the pivot point. Hi, yes they did change it and showed me the old one. They did however have to reuse those two ring things that sit on the fork pins. The new fork I bought said heavy duty? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul64 Posted January 12, 2009 Share Posted January 12, 2009 No that looks like a great piece of heath robinson engineering. Top marks that man.On subject of your clutch. They did change the fork I take it as this may have been holed and would account for the lack of movement should they have reused the old one. Very common. Unfortunately if they didn't change it it means the gearbox has to come out again. In that case make sure you get someone to strengthen the new one before you put it on by welding a piece of flat bar across the rear behind the pivot point. Unfortunately after another long session at the garage they couldn't resolve the problem. They checked the master and slave cylinders which they said was all working properly and they then adjusted the two nuts and rod in the master cylinder box and took up play with the nut o the front. All this and only a slight improvement. All gears are difficult to engage, but reverse is the worst with a horrible crunch and first no longer crunches but is a real pig to engage! Any ideas would be appreciated. Cheers, Paul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cipx2 Posted January 12, 2009 Share Posted January 12, 2009 Any noticeable improvement if you pump the clutch pedal several times before engaging 1st or reverse? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DaveSIIA Posted January 12, 2009 Share Posted January 12, 2009 Clutch plate in back to front? Slave cylinder fitted right way up (bleed nipple at the top), so it bleeds correctly? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul64 Posted January 12, 2009 Share Posted January 12, 2009 Any noticeable improvement if you pump the clutch pedal several times before engaging 1st or reverse? Makes no difference Cip. If anything after the 25km trip back it was worse! Clutch plate in back to front?Slave cylinder fitted right way up (bleed nipple at the top), so it bleeds correctly? I can't say re the plate going in back to front as I never saw in go in. However, these guys fit clutches all the time, so I can't imagine that happening, I hope The slave cylinder is as before the clutch change and everything was working fine before clutch went. My babe just before clutch went! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cipx2 Posted January 12, 2009 Share Posted January 12, 2009 Well, I'm sure it looks the same after the replacing the clutch Just to make sure I used proper words and made myself understood: - pumping the pedal means pressing on the pedal repeatedly, a bit faster than once a second, full pedal travel, same as when pumping air in the tyres with a foot air pump - with the engine running, gearbox in neutral, pump the pedal say 10 times full travel, keep the pedal down at the last stroke and try to engage 1st or reverse - you say nothing changes as opposite to not pumping the pedal, is this right? You can't fit the clutch disc the other way round. I mean you can, but you'll notice it while tightening the screws on the clutch plate. Anyway, it would have make an awful screeching noise from the first startup. On the other hand, have a look at the proper procedure to adjust the pedal here: http://forums.lr4x4.com/index.php?s=&s...st&p=235044 Maybe they/you can redo the adjustment by the book. I have some Qs: 1. You replaced the clutch kit (pressure plate + disc + bearing) and the fork, 4 bits, and nothing else? 2. What brand/version/part# is the new clutch and, if you know, which brand was the old one? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul64 Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 Well, I'm sure it looks the same after the replacing the clutch Just to make sure I used proper words and made myself understood: - pumping the pedal means pressing on the pedal repeatedly, a bit faster than once a second, full pedal travel, same as when pumping air in the tyres with a foot air pump - with the engine running, gearbox in neutral, pump the pedal say 10 times full travel, keep the pedal down at the last stroke and try to engage 1st or reverse - you say nothing changes as opposite to not pumping the pedal, is this right? You can't fit the clutch disc the other way round. I mean you can, but you'll notice it while tightening the screws on the clutch plate. Anyway, it would have make an awful screeching noise from the first startup. On the other hand, have a look at the proper procedure to adjust the pedal here: http://forums.lr4x4.com/index.php?s=&s...st&p=235044 Maybe they/you can redo the adjustment by the book. I have some Qs: 1. You replaced the clutch kit (pressure plate + disc + bearing) and the fork, 4 bits, and nothing else? 2. What brand/version/part# is the new clutch and, if you know, which brand was the old one? Hi Cip, The slave cylinder is the right way up with the bleed screw at the top. I pumped the pedal as said but it made no diffence when trying to engage 1st and reverse gears. I have no idea what make the old clutch was, but it has never been replaced in the 3 years that I have owned my LR. No groaning please but here is the make of the HD one that was installed. Yes, the clutch kit and the fork were the only items replaced. Thanks, Paul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cipx2 Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 I would try to check and adjust the pedal by the book (the link I gave you previously). Also, you should try to figure out if the resistance you feel at the clutch pedal looks like I pictured in this diagram: where: - from 0 to A: free travel - the force is almost constant - from A to B: force increases and it's usually 2/3 to 3/4 of the full travel - from B to C: force decreases for the rest of the travel (1/4 to 1/3 of the total pedal travel). - biting point (not figured on the diagram) should be, on a good working clutch, somewhere near the B point (usually between B and C) So: 1. Where would say the B point is on your clutch relative to the full travel? 2. Where do you feel the biting point is? I suggest you PM one of the mods of this section to split this topic in order to have the clutch problem in a separate thread. Some people might not interested in how cold it gets in Transylvania but might be interested or can contribute on a clutch issue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul64 Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 I would try to check and adjust the pedal by the book (the link I gave you previously).Also, you should try to figure out if the resistance you feel at the clutch pedal looks like I pictured in this diagram: where: - from 0 to A: free travel - the force is almost constant - from A to B: force increases and it's usually 2/3 to 3/4 of the full travel - from B to C: force decreases for the rest of the travel (1/4 to 1/3 of the total pedal travel). - biting point (not figured on the diagram) should be, on a good working clutch, somewhere near the B point (usually between B and C) So: 1. Where would say the B point is on your clutch relative to the full travel? 2. Where do you feel the biting point is? I suggest you PM one of the mods of this section to split this topic in order to have the clutch problem in a separate thread. Some people might not interested in how cold it gets in Transylvania but might be interested or can contribute on a clutch issue. I will have to nip out and test the clutch pedal as described. I can say straight away though that the biting point is quite high (closer to A) relative to the B point on your diagram. Cheers, Paul. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cipx2 Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 If you find the biting point closer to A than to B then try engaging 1st gear or reverse with the pedal at 2/3rds or 1/2 of the pedal travel. But don't force the lever, do it gently. Don't insist if it looks that isn't going to shift into gear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cipx2 Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 Forgot to add: Biting point = the point where, by very slowly lifting the clutch pedal, you can detect the slightest decrease of engine rpm (with engine running at idle, not pressing on the accelerator pedal, 1st gear selected) The biting point is lower (in terms of pedal travel) than the point at where it looks like the vehicle wants to start moving (the later point being what many people take as the biting point). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steve Hiatt Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 I had a similar problem with my Range Rover in the early 90's. After having the engine out three times, having the flywheel skimmed, new master & slave, extending the clutch push rod etc. it turned out to be the new clutch plate (sourced from a Factor). I fitted a genuine one and it was perfect. Annoyingly, the clutch plate I took out was only half worn but I thought I'd change it whilst the engine was out. When I went back to the Factors they couldn't give me the old one back as it was in a bin with hundreds of others. There was nothing visually wrong with the plate and I didn't have accurate measuring gear at the time, so I don't know why it didn't work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Sparkes Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 All gears are difficult to engage, but reverse is the worst with a horrible crunch and first no longer crunches but is a real pig to engage!Any ideas would be appreciated. My first reaction to this, and it hasn't changed, is that the clutch is dragging when it should be disengaged. Dragging meaning that drive from the flywheel / clutch cover is still being transmitted to the friction plate / input shaft, even when the clutch pedal is against the bulkhead. 'All gears difficult to engage' because the synchro cones are working overtime to match the speeds of the gears. Reverse crunches because there is no synchro (or it's totally ineffective). 'First is a real pig' because one of the gears is stationary, so the synchro has to work even harder. Everything is worse after 25 kms because the oil is a little warmer and thinner, so is not as effective as colder and thicker oil when it comes to driving the synchro cones / gears. This is all basic first principles stuff, and I'm sure the mechanics understand it. If you really get stuck when trying to move away from rest, switch the engine off, engage first or reverse as required, hold the clutch pedal down, then start the engine. The starter may not be too happy, and you may have to engage low box, because the chances are the car will try to start moving as the starter turns the engine over. What I take from the fact that the biting point is 'in the air' rather than close to the bulkhead is that: A/ The mechanics have (Naturally) adjusted the clutch to ensure the pressure plate moves well clear of the driven plate. B/ This aspect of the mechanism is working correctly, but when the drag problem is cured they may have to revisit the adjustment. C/ If the pressure plate wasn't moving clear of the friction plate when you pressed the pedal, due to a hydraulic or fork problem, them the biting point would be very close to the bulkhead. Given that the pressure plate is moving away from the friction plate, I can only think of two reasons why drive is being maintained. D/ The friction plate is very tight on the splines and simply won't move away from the flywheel (Highly unlikely that it's that stiff, and I'd expect the mechanics, if only because they ARE strangers to a Land Rover, to have tried the plate on the splines before assembly). E/ The friction plate is very slightly too large in diameter, and as it moves away from the flywheel it catches on the clutch cover. How to cure? Well, the 'ideal' solution is to release the box and pull it back so you can release the clutch cover and examine it for witness marks etc. Curing whatever fault is found. Clearly, having the engine turning at tickover and the gearbox (vehicle) stationary isn't putting enough force through the driving engagement to make it slip and wear down. **** or bust territory is to get a gear engaged, hold the clutch pedal depressed, hold the vehicle stationary (against a wall or a tree) then gradually increase the speed of the engine, listening for slipping / wearing noises from the clutch area. Whatever is dragging will either rapidly wear and free off, or break. If I'm right, and it's just the outer corner of the friction plate catching the cover, this corner will be chamfered off. If I'm wrong, and the centre is ripped out of the friction plate (say), I'm too far away to hear you swearing :-) Good Luck Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul64 Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 Thanks for all this information. I have just sent a text to the owner of the garage asking for his e-mail address so I can send him all your suggestions. Just a little more information. I can engage all gears at 2/3 clutch pedal depression. Biting point is at approximately the same location on the way back up. However, as stated 1st and reverse remain difficult to engage whether the clutch pedal is at 2/3 or flat against the bulkhead. Thanks for the explanation David as to why reverse becomes even more difficult to engage when running at full temp. Cheers, Paul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
western Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 get them to reset the master cylinder pushrod as detailed in the link, sometime ago mine wasn't set correctly & caused the clutch plate to drag then slip. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cipx2 Posted January 13, 2009 Share Posted January 13, 2009 One other thing that crossed my mind given the last 1/3rd of the pedal travel doesn't bring any improvement. When you put in a new pressure plate, its diaphragm spring being new as well, the effort at the pedal will always be higher than on the old pressure plate. A new pressure plate needs more force to shift than an old/used one. Maybe the master cylinder is (and was) on it's way out and can't keep/make the required pressure, higher than in case of the old pressure plate. At a certain pressure level the liquid escapes back past the seals. If I were you I'd try to go back at the shop and have them listen for abnormal noises when depressing the clutch, lift a wheel to check for drag (the vehicle should be warm, like after a good 20 miles trip or maybe more on very cold days) etc. Anyway, if you or they decide to pull gearbox out then my advice would be to get a new clutch kit first. But this time don't buy a Britpart one (do me this favor, please ) If nothing wrong with the pedal/hydraulics then the gearbox must come out. One other possibility is the pressure plate mechanism is faulty (diaphragm spring is carp). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul64 Posted January 14, 2009 Share Posted January 14, 2009 Thanks once again for your replies. Ralph- the mechanic did reset the master cylinder rod to gain an improvement, which it did to some extent. Before the adjustment 1st gear was grinding too. Cip-The mechanic said that the clutch pedal was sticking which is why he adjusted it. Regarding the HD Britpart clutch, are they so bad? I had a look around and couldn't find any bad press about them. Is your opinion based on the Britpart nam or from some information you have? Britpart buy from many sources, so I think it would be unfair to say everything they sell is of poor quality. My cousin said that the mechanic may have wanted me to bed it in for a few days in the hope that the springs on the clutch may slacken slightly? Cheers, Paul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GBMUD Posted January 14, 2009 Share Posted January 14, 2009 Britpart buy from many sources, so I think it would be unfair to say everything they sell is of poor quality. Do you suppose that they buy from many sources in search of the cheapest possible price for what they deem an 'acceptable' quality? Despite my misgivings about Britpart quality, most likely seems that something is sticking or not running true. If something (pressure plate most likely) is warped for some reason (Poor fitting, some muck caught between the flywheel and the pressure plate, etc.) then it will not release properly. If the release bearing is not pushing squarely against the diaphragm spring (in the pressure plate) this can give the same effect - effectively only releasing one side of the clutch at a time. Another alternative is that the friction plate is not able to slide smoothly on the splines and therefore drags on the flywheel or that the spigot bearing (a compressed bronze partical ring - looks like a 20mm slice off a 22mm copper pipe but made more like MDF) was damaged and is causing friction - though this is least likely IMHO. As for a solution, what about getting your old clutch reconditioned locally? I am assuming that in places like Romania this would be a cheap, easy and popular option as I will bet they re-use more stuff than we do here in western Europe! Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cipx2 Posted January 14, 2009 Share Posted January 14, 2009 I'm not saying that all Britpart parts are poor quality. Generally speaking, I wouldn't mind buying what they supply as long as the parts are genuine, oem, tested (proved ok). In other words, I want to know what I'm buying. Speaking only about the clutch: - Britpart doesn't have a clutch factory; who makes this clutch, what factory/country, what's their experience/tradition in clutch manufacturing, how about the quality control (a great influence on price)? - Britpart introduced this clutch recently (2008 I think); personally, I'm not interested in being a guinea pig and test it on my vehicle - Bripart says about a clutch for a turbo diesel engine "Extensive testing determined the ultimate specification - see clutch in action" and they give a link to a "V8 at full bore" :D. It works for kids, I agree. My suggestion is based on this: - if they pull the gearbox out and find something they can't fix/adjust this means you need another clutch; since I don't think you want to stay with the LR in pieces for a number of days, better have a new clutch at the ready - (say) if the pressure plate proves guilty, are you willing to try the same make (which is an aftermarket, not tested and proved ok in time, not approved by LR) and risk the same thing happening or a fail after 6 months? I wouldn't. As for reconditioning, given the price of a clutch kit, the only thing worth doing is replacing the friction material on the clutch disc (if the friction rings are available separately). Not the case here. Paul, if the clutch pedal is (or was) sticking, probably on its way up, then this should be investigated and solved properly, not by altering the adjustment (or at least not too much). There's no way we can give you the right solution without seeing/feeling the things on site. Maybe you can get a second opinion from someone else that can have a look at the vehicle (only a look/test/drive). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul64 Posted January 14, 2009 Share Posted January 14, 2009 Thanks again. I have had a journalist here all morning from a local paper. I took him for a little off road excursion using gears a lot more including low box. I maybe imagining it but the gearing is slightly easier now. Far from perfect but a little easier. When I was last in the UK I visited Britpart. I have to admit this changed my opinion of them. Their set up is huge and I was also given a tour of their testing dept. Parts are examined, tested etc before they go on sale. It just does not make sense to shove stuff out untested only to be returned and complained about by disgruntled customers. I have now used numerous parts without any complaint. The only part that has caused problems was a poorly fitting fuel sender. I am not saying all Britpart goods are perfect but it is easy to jump on the slag Britpart bandwagon without personal experience of failing parts. Point taken about the clutch Cip, however, britpart sell a lot of them and as yet I have not yet seen any poor press. Cheers, Paul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cipx2 Posted January 14, 2009 Share Posted January 14, 2009 I don't want to turn this thread into a Britpart thread but I am talking based on my personal experience only. Have a look at these posts: - http://forums.lr4x4.com/index.php?s=&s...st&p=196390 - http://forums.lr4x4.com/index.php?s=&s...st&p=248139 - caliper pistons that don't fit - no name rotoflex (rubber doughnut on the rear prop) fallen to pieces after 3 months - this was the first part I bought from them years ago. What quality control was that on the 1st two items (sprocket and piston)? In both cases the parts should have failed from the visual inspection only!!! I don't have prove for the piston (I used it to drive out some bushes and hammered it) or the rotoflex (threw it away) but I still have the sprocket. I very much doubt Britpart has a facility to test clutches and that they test every kit before boxing it. If you want to take a chance on another Britpart clutch then do it - your choice. One other thing they can do to actually see if the clutch is dragging (and it's not a gearbox problem) is to remove the filling plug on the gearbox and have a look inside to see if the gears are rotating with the following conditions met: - oils in the transfer box and gearbox are as warm as possible (after a long drive) - transfer box in neutral - 1st gear engaged - engine running (test at several rpm values) - clutch pedal fully depressed (test at different positions). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul64 Posted January 15, 2009 Share Posted January 15, 2009 I don't know what to say regarding the Britpart issue Cip. I will just have to wait and see if I start getting complaints from customers buying parts from me. I am printing off all the comments about the clutch to give to the mechanic, maybe as early as tomorrow. The other point I forgot to mention was a new noise that appeared after the clutch was changed. A dull thump sound as I take up drive? This happens when gears are changed but also when I put my foot down at low revs in too high a gear for the speed I'm doing. I know they have to take the prop off for the clutch change, do you think it has anything to do with that? When are you next up to the mountains to your weekend retreat. I could pop over and treat you to lunch for a 2nd (3rd or 4th) opinion! Cheers, Paul Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cipx2 Posted January 15, 2009 Share Posted January 15, 2009 Ok. Let's forget about Britpart. I'll show you what I mean when we'll meet. I don't think the new noise has something to do with the props. More likely a loose gearbox or exhaust mount, a bush or the A-frame ball joint or something else. Hard to tell by description you gave. Maybe someone else has more clues. They should be able to spot where this thump comes from fairly easy, specially if you say it can be heard when start moving. Try to exercise replicating the noise by letting the clutch pedal up around biting point (maybe a little bit faster than usual) like when you want to start moving but push the pedal back again to stop. The idea is to do something with the pedal to make the noise happening without actually moving the vehicle (or not more than a foot). They will put the LR over the pit, you'll replicate the noise and they should be able to spot where it comes from it right away by listening/watching from underneath. Most likely I'll go at my place in the mountains on 31st this month. I will keep you posted through PM. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paul64 Posted January 16, 2009 Share Posted January 16, 2009 Ok. Let's forget about Britpart. I'll show you what I mean when we'll meet.I don't think the new noise has something to do with the props. More likely a loose gearbox or exhaust mount, a bush or the A-frame ball joint or something else. Hard to tell by description you gave. Maybe someone else has more clues. They should be able to spot where this thump comes from fairly easy, specially if you say it can be heard when start moving. Try to exercise replicating the noise by letting the clutch pedal up around biting point (maybe a little bit faster than usual) like when you want to start moving but push the pedal back again to stop. The idea is to do something with the pedal to make the noise happening without actually moving the vehicle (or not more than a foot). They will put the LR over the pit, you'll replicate the noise and they should be able to spot where it comes from it right away by listening/watching from underneath. Most likely I'll go at my place in the mountains on 31st this month. I will keep you posted through PM. Your opinion would be appreciated, so look forward to the meeting. I tried to replicated the thud sound fro starting but couldn't achieve it no matter what I tried. Typical eh! What's it like in Bucharest? The snow is falling thick and fast here! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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