Hydraulic Steering on LR Axle - High Steer Arms ?

[zim]

Evening,

I'm looking for some pictures of people if they've put high steer arms on a LR axle

This is for full hydraulic, not hydro assist.

Just a little idea that i'm playing with

Cheers

Gordon

[tomcat404]

Hi Gordon,

The highest you can probably get with full hydro steering on a LR axles is to use a LHD swivel with the steering arm already on, this allow the steering to be pretty level along the case, maybe jusy above the front outer diff case. Ask saley for a picture as this is what he's running?

hope it helpe,

have a great chistmas,

nath

[Phil Hancock]

If this is for road use i would suggest some research is reqd as AFAIK full hydro is not legal for road use, it would need to be PAS.

[Boothy]

It's Christmas Phil, let's please not get into any legality debates, they've been done to death on many many occasions...

Just answer the question ,please please please.......

Merry Christmas

[winchclass90]

I've been looking into this aswell, it'll be fitted to my challenge truck which is not road legal at all haha

I thought about a td5 defender axle with the ram behind the axle and the link bar at the front,

On the high steer I was thinking about having some bracket milled up like te Dana 60 ones but all it's been is ideas at the minute not actually made anything,

Pictures would help too

[Range Rover Blues]

I vaguely remember that International tractors use(d) a hydraulic steering system with no mechanical link. The steering column turns a pump which is then "boosted" by a pump and drives a ram on the axle.

As for the boring legal bit, it's possibly different rules because it's a tractor but it is road legal if the steering still works when the engine is stopped as with PAS. For a car the steering wheel can't turn more than 4 degrees without something happening at the wheels.

AFAIK if you are thinking about a rear steer then as long as it's locked solid for road use it's ok.

[zim]

I thought about using a LHD hub, but wasn't sure on where to find one.

It's not road legal however 'll have a mechanical link to stay in class 2

G

...and no it's not rear steer. i've got mog's which are going rear steer

[Boothy]

I used a R/H LHdrive front hub to give a point to locate a front ram to, i.e. one each side, you can drop on them quite easy, in fact when you get one you will then see loads of em' its called sod's law.

Now I don't know if you drove the stering of the back of the axle and put a steering rod across the front wether that would have any odd effects on steering angles etc can't see why, don't forget across the back it could possible make changing the front diff and absolute pig and also prevent the engine being moved back to farbecause of sump/pump clearances, if indeed you are using and engine at the front.

Chris

[zim]

Chris,

Merry christmas

This is for my blue one Front axle, front engine. I mullerered my steering arm at slindon, so trying to get it in front of the axle - higher and out the way. So thought i may as well have a fiddle with some hydraulics

Guess i'll be on the lookout for a suitable hub. there are a couple on ebay at the mo i've found.

I'll give you a shout when i'm back if it all works ok...

G

[Daan]

You can do the lhd-rhd trick, but there are a few other problems; first off the panhard rod is in the way, which is a total pita to solve. Another problem is that you reverse ackerman, meaning that the outer wheel steers further than the inner wheel, opposite from what is should be. In reality, many people have done this and not found it a problem. Also, bacause it is at the front, it potentially is a bit more fulnerable, even if it is a bit higher. I looked at doing high steer arms, as your original question, but only having 2 bolts at the top makes it a bit weak. I havent found the right solution for the problem myself, so still battling with the same problem as yourself.

Show us your solution when your done....

Daan

[Boothy]

My bombproof adjustable panard runs opposite way to normal i.e. attaches to the nearside body, because when you remove the steering box you have now lost your anchor point for the panard rod, so after a lot of thought and fabrication we manafactured one out of shaft steel (we being Carl Hurst) and the rear steering rod is also out of some shaft steel (ex aerospace) and is probably one of the strongest parts of the motor, leaving the track end end as the sacrificial point of the steering, on the theory that they are cheap and easy to change.

Got to be said is mine handles like a pig at speed, with 6psi, soft springs, hard shockers, unadjusted steering rod (best guess) but it's fine for challenges where there is a very low speed limit....i.e. 75MPH.. but we've never really had to concentate on getting it more refined....

Good luck and suprise us all....

[dirtyninety]

What was the outcome then?

Im currently looking at full hydro as I want to lose all the annoying mechanical linkage.

And ive been thinking, if im going to have a hydraulic pump, i meres will have hydraulic winches aswell.

What pumps should i be looking at?

to go on the crank of a front engined 200tdi?

[Range Rover Blues]

If you want to relocate the steering rod to the front of the axle take a look at the Jeep, they use a track rod to which the drag link connects directly (slightly inboard of one end), so only one balljoint at each steering knuckle.

[will_warne]

Zim, this is an interesting question but, sadly, I don't think there's a good answer... Steering clearance is poor on the Rover axle but high steer arms aren't really an easy option as there is nothing to attach them too. If you are a very good welder you could weld new arms onto the outer swivel housing but this is really only an option for highly skilled welders. There is the option of using a left hand swivel. Now, there are a couple of issues with this. As Daan said, the biggest issue is the steering geometry. The reason for this is that, on the Rover axle, the steering geometry is created by the track rod - this sets how far one wheel turns relitive to the other. The drag link simply pushes or pulls the system and it's location will be partly determined by the panhard rod length and mounting points. The next issue is the Land Rover track rod ends aren't all that strong and a would have very serious concerns about Zim, this is an interesting question but, sadly, I don't think there's a good answer... Steering clearance is poor on the Rover axle but high steer arms aren't really an easy option as there is nothing to attach them too. If you are a very good welder you could weld new arms onto the outer swivel housing but this is really only an option for highly skilled welders. There is the option of using a left hand swivel. Now, there are a couple of issues with this. As Daan said, the biggest issue is the steering geometry. The reason for this is that, on the Rover axle, the steering geometry is created by the track rod - this sets how far one wheel turns relitive to the other. The drag link simply pushes or pulls the system and it's location will be partly determined by the panhard rod length and mounting points. The next issue is the Land Rover track rod ends aren't all that strong and I would have very serious concerns about using them with full hyrdaulic steering as the forces produced can be HUGE - I know with my setup the ram will produce about 2 tonnes of force!

The real problem is that the Rover axle, as good as it is, has its limitations and a lot of people are finding them. This is why there's a large market in the US for custom axles as all the factory options were not ideal and were difficult to cutomise. Although this route can be expensive (you can happily blow £13k - 15k on a pair of Spidertrax axles by the time you get them ready to roll) you can create something tough for much less.... For example, get hold of a pair of Salisbury axles, buy a set of knuckles from the US, have some custom stub alxes machined to fit the knuckles and take Rover hubs, get some shafts made, buy some ARBs (about the same price as Rover items) and throw the lot together. Job done! Although it will be more expensive than building a Rover axle up it won't be that much more expensive and it will be much stronger!

[zim]

Cheers for the post will.... i'm sure i read the first part twice lol

Having looked at the hubs closer (i started the thread when i was away from home), i agree...it's not easy to "just" add a high steer arm.

A rough idea we came up with is to weld higher up on the hub a new arm coming outwards. At the same time as bring braces down each side for added support.

Do the same on both hubs (utilising a LHD) so you can add the brace down the side.

Yes i realise a vertical brace is not a lot of help for horizontal forces, but every little bit helps

With regards to tre's, i've got a double ended ram so will run rosejoints on either end and get rid of the standard LR steering link that sits behind the axle.

I don't wish to spend a lot on this, just merely testing ideas for when i build the next one using my portals.

G

P.S. welding will be done by a mate who's got parts in the A380 and tig's all day long for a job

Edit : made a small typo about a parts name

Edited January 26, 2011 by zim

[Rizla 1]

Just thought i'd show you Rizla 2 - with full hydro on rover axles with the LHD swivel and with en24 homemade link arms with balljoints -

all sits nice and level and steers okay offroad

.