dangerous doug Posted April 2, 2011 Share Posted April 2, 2011 alot of threads popping up about tube bending and benders.... hopefully this thread should answer a few questions some have. this thread is baised apon my own experiances and is also not a place to argue over which tube bender is best. first things first, is it cheaper to build your own cage? in short, no. if you have to buy all the equipment yourself your looking at over 1k if your using midrange equipment. ofcourse you can shave costs by econamising. is it easey? no, but it gets easeyer . is it quicker? not if you havnt done one before unless building stuff is your hobby or you plan on building another frame i would not advise buying your own bender. but if your still interested read on the way i see it there are 2 ways being discussed of going down this road and they both revolve around one subject; ratchet bender or centrepress bender centre press benders look apealing due to there price but there is a definate reason why there so cheap, to be blunt there no good. you end up with flatspots in your bends, that is if you tube doesnt fold up and kink. but they are very very easey to use the ratchet bender is 10 times the price of the average centre press but the result it 10 times better. my one has very little distortion over a 180 degree bend and the distortion it does present is expected over such a large angle. this was produced with a ratchet bender this with a centre press you can see the difference in the bends dispite the poor photos. as said the centre press bender is the cheaper alterative but doesnt achieve the best result. i found this video very helpfull when using my old one. if you are using the snd bending method make sure you do pack the sand down tight, he definatly doesnt stress that enough.... now ive moved on to a ratchet bender at great cost to my self im very very pleased with the result. and now i have it it doesnt cost me any money, it doesnt distort the tube like the centre press ones so if any tube does go to the scrap bin i have only my self to blame. but dont think its just a matter of buying a bender you also haveto decide on weather you want to notch the tube with a grinder, hole saws, plasma cutter, belt sander, mill the list goes on. also keeping things on the same plain isa bit of an issue. ive see people put a long spirit level over a bent to keep the next one on the same plain but i opted for a magnetic angle gauge there is also the plan of your cage. i just freestyled it which was a big mistake but its one i have to live with, you can get tube bending softwhere where you can draw out your cage and it will calculate exacly where you want to start your bend on the tube and how far to go. EDIT: what is a ratchet bender? answer is in the name, you use a ratcheting arm to rotate the die around a former, this is what stops the tube from flattening out, wrinkeling or creasing while bending aside from the cost of these benders the main downfall is that you have to be fairly physically able you pull the lever around to actually bend things. but the end result greatly outweighs its downfalls as you can see in the pic my apprentace struggled to bend 2"ERW tube and i get left to do the CDS :roll: there are hydraulic conversions for these benders but this equipment is often very overpriced and is normally much more economicly sound to fabricate your own conversion as most of these ratchet benders are built in the states.with these benders you purchase the dies seperatly which is where the expence is. normally when you purchase a centre press you get a selection fo dies with it but when you buy the ratchets you haveto specify what die you want, these can range between 90 to 400 pounds and maby more depending the size of the tube you want to bend, the radius you want to bend it over and weather you want to bend 90degrees or 180. what is a centre press? a centrepress bender is esentially a bottle jack with a former around it. it pushes the tube around the former and normally 2 rollers at each end of its chassis. an advantage to these benders are that you can mark out the centre of your bend put that mark in the centre of the die and bend untill you reach your desired angle where as the ratchet benders bend back from a marked line so it can be a bit tricky to effectively use them for multiple bends. this video shows a converted centrepress that runs on an compressor, where as it normally works like a bottlejack but even in this video you can see the distortion levels of unprepped tube in one of these things. not even an angle greater than 45 degrees. filling the tube can stop this but the quality will not be to the standards of the ratchets. i have probibly missed alot of info out but im sure others will post with there own experiances and some more info on whats what. havnt even scratched the surface with what i have written. but when i have time or when i have time i will update if needed this is the place to ask questions, dont go starting new threads :wink: if what ive said here is helpfull to just one person i will be happey HTH boss NOTE FOR LR4X4: this is a re post from another forum but i still wrote it. 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simonr Posted April 5, 2011 Share Posted April 5, 2011 Very good post! Can't find anything I disagree with! I also have a JD2 bender. While it probably would have been cheaper to get Dan Evans et al to make a cage for me - what I was hoping for was the flexibility to make what I wanted and to change my mind half way through the process. It's also been used to make the odd X-Anchor so has probably paid for itself by now. There is a very useful bit of Software I also bought called BendTech which is a sort of CAD system for tube bending. You calibrate it to your bender and then it will take into account the amount of material 'lost' in the bend. You can virtually build your cage, measure it to make sure it fits and then it spits out a series of cut lengths, bend positions, rotations and angles. It's fantastically accurate and will pay for itself in the amount of tube you don't waste through cock-ups. I made my own hydraulic kit for my bender using a 70cm stroke ram which originally formed part of a gate-opener that I bought at Old Sodbury one year. The hydraulic pump also came from Sodbury - it was meant to drive a tipper so it's 12v. As it turned out this is an advantage as you don't need mains to execute a bend. Out of one charge you can make 30 x 90 degree bends in 1 3/4 CDS. Making it Hydraulic also means that the bender can be mounted on a trolly whereas the manual option needs to be bolted to the ground - a must for the small workshop. Si Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dangerous doug Posted April 7, 2011 Author Share Posted April 7, 2011 cheers si, i also have the JD2. i thought a 20 year old design with little change must be half diecent.i am looking into making it hydraulic as making a rear hoop is problematic in the space i have, i had to turn the bender around on the stand and also flip it upside down. a hydro conversion with a trolly and maby some screw down outriggers to level out the die would be brilliant. any photos of your set up? came across this god like machine lastnight Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simonr Posted April 7, 2011 Share Posted April 7, 2011 Using chain to extend the reach of the ram is a great idea - but the forces start to stack up a bit! There are a couple of photos of my setup here: http://forums.lr4x4.com/index.php?showtopic=56190&view=findpost&p=498423 Si Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyb Posted April 8, 2011 Share Posted April 8, 2011 I always thought that the quality of then bend was down to the accuratcy of the mandel being used. Is that not the case then? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dangerous doug Posted April 8, 2011 Author Share Posted April 8, 2011 a really basic explination... if you take a normal plastic straw and bend it in half it will crease and fold. the way the centre press ones work is very similar to just bending a straw.as the wall of the tube flattens out(like the straw)the die stops it from expanding, and you get a rough bend. the out side of the tube isnt touched atall which is where the problem lies. the ratchet benders stop the straw creasing effect and also, but by using the former on the otherside of the die but they stretch the outer face of the steel during the bend which is how/why you get the smooth bends from them si, i like your auto stop idea, i was thinking about using a proximity sensor if i went hydro but the micro switch seems to be a better idea. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
longlandy Posted April 8, 2011 Share Posted April 8, 2011 Using chain to extend the reach of the ram is a great idea - but the forces start to stack up a bit! There are a couple of photos of my setup here: http://forums.lr4x4.com/index.php?showtopic=56190&view=findpost&p=498423 Si No problems on a forklift though Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dirtydiesel Posted April 8, 2011 Share Posted April 8, 2011 Sorry Doug, but i disagree. A couple of symantics first the 2 types of tube bender you are describing should really be; center push and draw type strictly speaking, a center push bender is for pipe whereas a draw type is for tube. Your experiances are based on an appaling quality center push and the really nice jd2, not really a fair fight!!! I use a virax center push (basically a folding version of a tubella) no damage and very little deformation This is one of 60+ cages for my virax. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dangerous doug Posted April 9, 2011 Author Share Posted April 9, 2011 i have to say DD im very impressed with that the experiances are based on a poor quality centre push and a JD2 yes but what are most people talking about buying? the points im trying to weigh up in this thread is should you spend £200 on a clarke/sely set up (what alot of people do consider) or a more expencive draw type bender, dont want to conclude with you get what you pay for because that doesnt really tell anyone anything, BUT the example that you have put forward with the george cage is a very good one of you get what you pay for with a centre push type. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bishbosh Posted April 9, 2011 Share Posted April 9, 2011 As with all tools, it comes down to the quality - in this case the quality of the dies. The cheap push benders have woeful dies that deflect under the loads from the pipe allowing it to deform. I have a Tubela H3PR and as long as the pipe diameter matches the die and you are using an appropriate material then the bends are fine. I would echo the comment that unless you intend to make a lot of bends it is cheaper, easier and safer in terms of the end product to buy a flatpack kit from a grown up. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
andyb Posted April 9, 2011 Share Posted April 9, 2011 I get the straw analogy, but interesting to read other comments. I have a centre push Tubela. Missing a few mandels (so I am saving up for the missing ones ) Kinda reliefed to read that I haven't completely wasted my money Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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