reb78 Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 The supercharger thread in the defender section got me wandering around the internet looking at water to air charge coolers. Simple design really, there are a few secondhand kits around that are cheaper than uprated intercoolers and they look like they could also be easily fitted in combination with an intercooler. Would there be any benefit/gain on a tdi? I notice that Allard seem do this as one of their 'phased' upgrades, but couldnt find many details on their site. As well as more power (if combined with fuelling tweaks), could a charge cooler also help with engine longevity (if the tweaks were moderate) by cooling the intake charge and decreasing head temperatures? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedLineMike Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 ;spinoff: ive just today dropped my td5 challenge buggy off at allisport to have there prototype/development charge cooler system installed, i know that allisport also have a 300tdi challenge buggy in awaiting a chargecooler similar to whats being fitted to mine, i dont have much information available about it just now but it will be on display at the indoor show :/spinoff: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reb78 Posted February 17, 2012 Author Share Posted February 17, 2012 I'd be curious to see that. I would think that with a straight through type cooler you could easily add that in line with the pipework from the intercooler to the inlet manifold without adding much restriction to flow or taking up much space. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheRecklessEngineer Posted February 17, 2012 Share Posted February 17, 2012 They take up less space yes - but it's the ancillary systems that come with it that bulk it out much more in the end. I considered fitting one for my 300 TDi into a Series 3 project. But I've gone for the easy option of fitting an intercooler. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reb78 Posted February 17, 2012 Author Share Posted February 17, 2012 Apart from the water cooler (which could be quite long and less tall - rather than a square rad), there wouldnt be too much extra to add would there? I was wondering about keeping the intercooler fitted and adding it after the intercooler. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vulcan bomber Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 Air to air intercoolers are far more efficiant at speed.. Charge coolers do however come into there own at low speeds, so there better for the challenge boys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToyRoverlander Posted February 18, 2012 Share Posted February 18, 2012 FYI How can an air-to-air intercooler be more efficient than a water based intercooler? There is an overwhelming quantity of ambient air available to cool an air-to-air core relative to the charge air thru the inside of the intercooler (The iced down water intercooler is the only exception to this argument.). At just 60 mph, with a 300 bhp engine at full tilt, the ambient air available to cool the intercooler is about ten times the amount of charge air needed to make the 300 hp. Whereas the water intercooler largely stores the heat in the water until off throttle allows a reverse exchange. Some heat is expelled from a front water cooler, but the temperature difference between the water and ambient air is not large enough to drive out much heat. Another way to view the situation is that ultimately the heat removed from the air charge must go into the atmosphere regardless of whether it's from an air intercooler or a water based intercooler. The problem with the water intercooler is that the heat has more barriers to cross to reach the atmosphere than the air intercooler. Like it or not, each barrier represents a resistance to the transfer of heat. The net result; more barriers, less heat transfer. What are the relative merits of an air or water-cooled intercooler and which would suit my purposes best? This depends on the circumstances. These circumstances are; street use, drag racing, or endurance racing (more than two minutes). Street use: The air-to-air intercooler will prove superior in efficiency when sized properly. Drag racing: The short spurt of power allows the iced water to cool the charge air to below ambient temperature. Endurance racing: The air-to-air intercooler is clearly superior due to the shorter route of getting the heat out of the air charge and into the atmosphere. Endurance racing would preclude the use of ice water, thus negating the singular advantage of the water intercooler. Further, the air-to-air intercooler is (virtually, see comments below) maintenance free. http://www.bellintercoolers.com/pages/techFAQ.html#FAQ_5 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Team Idris Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 It's a mess to figure out! You might think that a charge cooler is best for short bursts of power and an air cooled intercooler best for continous use. But the 3416 CAT has charge coolers and it runs at 900hp happily all the while The normal intercooler is the simplest to fit and maintain, and it has some heat soak propeties, as the ally tubes and tanks take time to heat up (Joules energy per kg of metal per degree). But the long pipe work and header tanks increase turbo lag. What would be ideal is a turbo or supercharger right next to inlet manifold with a cooling system inbetween. And that's possible on the old TDi's and a lot easier on the TD5 with the head layout. Pop in a charge cooler and you get water with really good heat capacity making a small cooler package with less turbo lag. And the pre rad can go anywhere in a good air flow out of harms way. Great for challenge But a series system of intercooler and charge cooler would give the disadvantages of both as I see it. Complication, with the max turbo lag of both coolers internal volumes. It's worth pointing out, that although most intercoolers get the turbo air down to near ambient temps, many industrial engines use the engine water returning from the rad to cool the charge cooler. 70 or 80 degreee water may seem hot, but it removes a lot of the heat energy from a 250 degree air stream. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elbekko Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 Isn't it more of a combination of getting the heat away faster (pump in the charge cooler system) and shorter piping for the air because it doesn't have to go to an intercooler first? A charge cooler integrated into the inlet manifold would probably work quite well, but I'm not sure what that'd do to the head in terms of temperature differences. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reb78 Posted February 19, 2012 Author Share Posted February 19, 2012 A charge cooler integrated into the inlet manifold would probably work quite well, but I'm not sure what that'd do to the head in terms of temperature differences. Looking on ebay, it seems that the Jag XJR system is just this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheRecklessEngineer Posted February 19, 2012 Share Posted February 19, 2012 It's a mess to figure out! You might think that a charge cooler is best for short bursts of power and an air cooled intercooler best for continous use. But the 3416 CAT has charge coolers and it runs at 900hp happily all the while The normal intercooler is the simplest to fit and maintain, and it has some heat soak propeties, as the ally tubes and tanks take time to heat up (Joules energy per kg of metal per degree). But the long pipe work and header tanks increase turbo lag. What would be ideal is a turbo or supercharger right next to inlet manifold with a cooling system inbetween. And that's possible on the old TDi's and a lot easier on the TD5 with the head layout. Pop in a charge cooler and you get water with really good heat capacity making a small cooler package with less turbo lag. And the pre rad can go anywhere in a good air flow out of harms way. Great for challenge But a series system of intercooler and charge cooler would give the disadvantages of both as I see it. Complication, with the max turbo lag of both coolers internal volumes. It's worth pointing out, that although most intercoolers get the turbo air down to near ambient temps, many industrial engines use the engine water returning from the rad to cool the charge cooler. 70 or 80 degreee water may seem hot, but it removes a lot of the heat energy from a 250 degree air stream. As I understand it, automotive charge coolers generally don't use any kind of temperature control. They just dump heat into cooling water - which is in turn cooled in a radiator. Yes, big engines use charge coolers - but you've got temperature probes in the charge air to keep it at a certain temperature (about 50 degrees IME). They tend not to see large load changes so the whole system stays in a steady state quite nicely. Keeping a constant temperature in an automotive environment with wildly changing loads would be a bit more of a challenge. Dammit! Got me interested now in fitting my 300 conversion with a charge cooler. Hmmmm..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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