Tibout Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 hi guys as the title says i might have a big issue and expensive problem with my landy!!! was driving to work today first i noticed on start up loads of white smoke but goes away after a minute or so. While i was driving suddenly i start hearing a knocking or clattering noise seem to be coming at the back of the engine near the bell housing!! and loads of whitish smoke coming out. So pull over turn and give her a bit of rev and smoke like crazy and knocking noise louder the throttle seem to be stuck a bit as well!! the throttle pedal was fully up but still sound its reving still with the knocking and the smoke. Drove back home and on the way it seem to stop and drives perfect but the knocking and smoke comes back every minute or so!! Back home i check the coolant and seem fine no oil but i could smell burning somewhere around the engine. take off the oil cap and its very hot smoke coming out of it!!! Engine is off of course. temperature was normal on dash but the engine seem very hot and heater was working inside the cab so i guess there's coolant circulation! So could it be a crack head ???? may be injector seal in which case i'll be lucky. Maf sensor ( don't think so)!!! The only modification i did was blanking the egr. Landy is a 2002 15P 110 with 115k miles on it. If it's crack head how hard of a job am i looking at? could i remove it easy enough I've done it on 200tdi and 300tdi no experience with td5. What about for replacing the injector seal how easy is it to do? any advice and help wellcome guys thanks Thierry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Simon Smith Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 Where was the smoke coming from? Engine or exhaust? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tibout Posted September 27, 2012 Author Share Posted September 27, 2012 from the exhaust simon!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tibout Posted September 27, 2012 Author Share Posted September 27, 2012 And i did notice as well that the fuel pump was a bit noisy more at the start then it kind of get quieter but if you go back at the landy you would hear it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PS_Bond Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 Daft question - when was the timing belt last done? (scratch that - it's a chain on that one, isn't it?) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tibout Posted September 27, 2012 Author Share Posted September 27, 2012 chain on td5. i've check the dip stick as well seems over fill and i recently service the landy and definitely put the right amount of oil. smell a tiny bit of diesel. was just wondering if lr sorted the issue with diesel getting in the engine with the steel dowel. i've read somewhere that they use them as standard on the 15p engine!! i'm hoping its a leaking injector seal. but the engine seems hotter than normal but temperature on the dash was normal. But i did smell burning when i got out of the cab Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanuki Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 It does sound to me like the engine was either running on its own engine-oil (turbo oil-seals failed?) or there's diesel entering the combustion-chamber(s) via a route that is not fully controlled by the injectors - which would mean either that one of the copper injector-washers has failed catastrophically, or there is a crack between the fuel-channel in the head and one of the cylinders that's allowing Diesel throgh. Though that would not explain the smoke from the oil-filler cap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tibout Posted September 27, 2012 Author Share Posted September 27, 2012 I think the smoke coming from the oil cap was just that the engine seems really hot. Just checked the coolant again colour is fine but seems a bit oily at the touch. If the turbo seal fail will it burn oil of something? How to check that? I'm hoping it's the injectors seal as the fuel pump I'd making noises and there's a knock coming from the engine. And it does run funny but it goes away every now and then but the knock and smoke will come back every minute or so. What should I be looking into first before I actually take the head off Thanks a mil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simonr Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 Most of the symptoms could be explained by the fuel rail leaking into one or more bores. The knock could be premature ignition of diesel that has leaked into the bore. fuel pump might respond to the back-pressure spikes from the conbustion and smoke due to there being too much diesel injected. Intermittent nature could just be diesel leaking in to a bore and it taking a while to get hot enough to combust. At some point, the engine was changed to have an external fuel rail - but I cannot remember which year (Western?). If yours has an external rail, it means it cannot be that! A failed injector could present the same symptoms - but would not result in oil/diesel getting in to the coolant. There is a chemical test for combustion products in the coolant. Most garages will have a test set. Might be worth taking a sample of the coolant to one of them. That will tell you for certain that either the head gasket has gone, or you have a cracked head (if positive). If negative, it could still be either of those however. If the turbo seal has gone, the engine will run on after you switch it off. Often it will rev higher & higher and you have to dump the clutch to stop it! Also, that will cause the oil level to drop rather than rise. Si Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tibout Posted September 27, 2012 Author Share Posted September 27, 2012 Thanks Simon I will test the coolant. Where will I locate the fuel rail if mine is fitted with one?! Is changing the injector seal a big job? Is there any adjustment to be when putting back the injectors? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tibout Posted September 27, 2012 Author Share Posted September 27, 2012 Ps the engine start and sto fine no problem at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanuki Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 If the turbo seal's leaking then at idle it can weep oil into the intercooler - it builds up there to a point then starts coming through - or if you rev it then the intercooler-full of oil gets blown through in a blob and you get massive knocking & smoke. Disconnect and look into the ends of the pipe between the turbo outlet and the intercooler inlet - if the turbo's blown a seal you'll see all the oily evidence in this pipe ! If the turbo seal has gone, the engine will run on after you switch it off. Often it will rev higher & higher and you have to dump the clutch to stop it! Also, that will cause the oil level to drop rather than rise. Si Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simonr Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 Don't know much about the Injector seals - other than they tend to be what everyone hopes is the problem before they find out the head is cracked! Si Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tibout Posted September 27, 2012 Author Share Posted September 27, 2012 I will check that later. Bug I did blank my egr last week and notice just a tiny bit of oil in the inter cooler pipe but erg valve was very clean same as the inlet manifold.!! Could that suggest something? I'm just trying to give as much info as I can sometimes tiny details could make big difference Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tibout Posted September 27, 2012 Author Share Posted September 27, 2012 got coolant check no oil in it. but there's diesel in my engine oil i think it's overfill and i did the service recently and put the right amount of oil. I think i going to order injectors seal and change the copper washer and o ring. do you guys think im right by starting with the seal. it's a 15P engine and she has a the fuel rail outside( but read somewhere that the 15P engine have 2 fuel rail one inside the head and one outside!!! sound a bit odd) may be someone could clarify this? Any tips and advice on doing the injector seal? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanuki Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 If there's diesel in the engine oil then the increased volume (and thinning effect of the diesel!) could be causing oil-spray whipped up by the engine to go up through the breather-pipe from the top of the engine, throuigh the breather-valve on the intake pipe just in front of the turbo, then through the turbo and down into the engine. Replace the injector seals then see what happens. Injector-seals cost very little so it's worth trying them first before doing any more serious head-works. got coolant check no oil in it. but there's diesel in my engine oil i think it's overfill and i did the service recently and put the right amount of oil. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tibout Posted September 27, 2012 Author Share Posted September 27, 2012 now you are mentioning the oil spray some of the oil which is very thin(diesel into it) has come out from the breather pipe. Ordering the seals now (genuine) and why do i need to lock the camshaft while doing the injector? i know i'll need to adjust the rocker after but if i lock the camshaft at tdc then remove the rocker shaft assembly, will the cam itself be in the way while i try to remove some of the injectors?? i mean that the lobe might be in a position where i would not be able to get a tool there to get the some of the injectors out, so i'll need to rotate the engine to move the cam lobe out of the way ( i could be totally wrong there as i'm just planning this in my head ) If im wrong please let me know. Also what size of drill bit could i use to lock the camshaft? or will i need the special tool? thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 I am just going through exactly the same at the moment, although I didn't have knocking, I have/had a 15p with 100k on it, I hoped it was the injector seals but this was not the case and it was the head, I was told if it is the injector seals you can normally spot a clean bit coming from the top of the engine. Before you change them take the rocker cover off and run the engine you may well spot the leak/crack. However as Simon says it could be the injector seal leaking into a cylinder and causing premature ignition. There is only one fuel rail in the 15p head but it can still crack if it is cracked then the engine can run lean therefore causing it to run hot, however the water temp will not get that hot/show hot as the water jacket does not take up that much heat. The fuel rail could be leaking into the cylinders causing the smoke and the knocking!! You don't need to lock the engine to change the injectors but remember they are coded so they need to go back in the same holes!! The book says you should lock the engine if you are removing the head, the head is not that difficult to change the conscience seems to be that you should go for the AMC (Spanish head) which is hardened and better constructed they are £1,250.00 including the vat and then the gasket and bolt set is £150. You may also need to get your exhaust manifold skimmed and are likely to snap at least one stud removing the old ones so it is advised that you fit the Worth Studs. I have chosen to take a different route and just replace my engine with a know good one as I am using the engine removal as a chance to change my clutch as it's at 100K. I have done loads of reading over the last few weeks about the issues etc if you have any questions feel free to PM me. Cheers, Jason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 Oh and the instruction book can be found here... Jason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tibout Posted September 27, 2012 Author Share Posted September 27, 2012 Thanks Jason I've order the seal for the injectors. Won't get them until next week though. Hoping that might sort the problem if not itx a new head I'm afraid. What will cause the fuel rail to leak into the engine? The fuel pump is making noises like as if air is getting through. I had a discovery with a v8 diesel before which had similar problem and it turns out the seal on the injectors was worn. I will keep you update when I get to change the seal Thierry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 Hi Thierry, The fuel rail sits at 80psi so is under stress, but as you say if your fuel pump is noisy then it could be a leaking seal, have you removed the rocker cover and taken a look? That's question about what makes the fuel rail crack is open to a lot of debate however it seems to be time/fatigue/pressure and not on all heads seems to be caused by poor casting and not a lot of metal in the head. I guess it's not Land Rover's problem when it gets to that age so not an issue for them. The AMC head is a much thicker casting hence eliminating the issue of the head cracking. Jason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tibout Posted September 27, 2012 Author Share Posted September 27, 2012 i will take the rocker cover off tomorrow. according to your info i should be able to see diesel leaking from an injector. i'll do that first thing in the morning and let you guys know what the story. thanks again for these great advice thierry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 27, 2012 Share Posted September 27, 2012 You will only be able to see it leaking if it is coming past the seal and into the oil side of the head, if the bottom seal has gone then it will be leaking into the cylinder. Hope your outcome is happier than mine was. Jason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tibout Posted September 28, 2012 Author Share Posted September 28, 2012 did'nt get a chance to take the rocker off to have a look but i've already order the seal for injectors won't have them until next week. i will try to take some pictures as i go and may be put it in the tech archieve. could be of use to someone even if it does'nt sort my problem!! will keep you update. Thierry Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted September 28, 2012 Share Posted September 28, 2012 Well best of luck, I hope it's just the seals. Jason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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