Laptom Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 Hi Guys, Started 2 months ago with the MS project. Got the complete kit from Nige for my RRC. Last week I got the change to fire it up (checked all the sensors, etc) and.... Nothing. Switched the crank sensor wires and.... started right up with the save map from Nige. Really happy with the result, RRC is driving 10x better then with the old Lucas stuff (3.5 EFI, '86 RRC). Has already some extra punch compared to before. Got dual mapping working for LPG. Car is now at the garage for MOT (everything looks good (even CO within regulations), except some braking stuff). Need to fix this and then the car is ready for some road tuning. II noticed one thing (I know, I need to start every tuning bit). The idling is sometimes off. The car starts and idling is nice and stable around 1500rpm. Then after some time it shoots to 1800rpm (not lineair, just with a bump) and then after some time it shoot to 750rpm. Also nice and stable (no haunting). The MAP is good (around 39 at 750 rpm and stable) so I expect no vacuum leaks. My hunch is that the ms idle circuit is not good or the idle valve is sticking a bit. Anybody ideas how to test it in simulation? Or other ideas? Thanks, Tom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheRecklessEngineer Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 I've tested it with an old speaker before. Not ideal, but should give you some idea. I forget the default settings now, but you can a) see it move and b) hear it buzz with the PWM frequency. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted October 5, 2012 Share Posted October 5, 2012 I'd see if you can data-log the idle problem, it could be the MS is responding to a faulty sensor or something like that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laptom Posted October 11, 2012 Author Share Posted October 11, 2012 Good idea to test it with a loadspeaker. Fridge, I don't know if I can upload a logfile. Will try. The problem is that I can only log for 5 or 10 seconds with TunerStudio and 0 seconds with MegaTune. I don't know what is wrong, but the communication will be quite after 5 seconds. Very anoying. MS seems to continue working without issues, so it seems a laptop issue, will try another laptop this weekend. edit: uploaded the .msl file as a .pdf. Please rename. 2012-10-10_17.55.23.pdf 2012-10-10_17.50.48.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laptom Posted October 21, 2012 Author Share Posted October 21, 2012 Still not getting tickover right. The car itself is running like it is on rocket fuel, but tickover is high. The higher the CLT is, the higher tickover RPM. On cold, the engine runs nicely 1400rpm, but when 80degrees the engine runs like 2300rpm. What could it be? 2 Data logs: 1. No riding, just cold starting and idling (ok: 2 times touching the throttle) until 80degrees 2. Cold start and cruising around. I renamed the files to pdf for posting, but they are MegaLogger files. Thanks for your help!! Kopie van 2012-10-21_18.48.08.pdf Kopie van 2012-10-21_12.26.52.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted October 22, 2012 Share Posted October 22, 2012 2300 rpm sounds like your valve is wide open. Remove the vale, block the pipes and start it up, see what it idles at now, then adjust for ~600rpm. This gives your base idle. If you can't get it that low, you need to check for an air leak. Also, when running with the pipes blocked, check your valve is doing what you expect... What's your PWM DC at idle? Most valves are around 25 for closed, but by no means all! 0 is open again, and anything over 30 is opening as well (there's a fail safe, should the valve stop working, that it will open giving you a high idle). It is of course possible that the valve is faulty. Steps in idle speed sound like they could be your WUE settings being wrong... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laptom Posted October 22, 2012 Author Share Posted October 22, 2012 I have got the same feeling, the idle valve is getting more open as warmer the engine got. 1. Map is 35 at idle. So vacuum its good. Checked with brake cleaner and no strange behaviour. 2. Start up is perfect 1400 rpm like programmed 3. No hunting, stable but high idle 4. Idle circuit blokked: rpm is 700 and stable. I have got the feeling that the MS circuit is not functioning well, but how to check this? On the Stim the idle LED is continious burning. Is that normal? Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted October 22, 2012 Share Posted October 22, 2012 I have got the feeling that the MS circuit is not functioning well, but how to check this? On the Stim the idle LED is continious burning. Is that normal? Probably - the MS is varying the voltage on the idle valve, so the LED will be varying in brightness, but probably not by enough to be noticable as the LED is a very different (small) load compared to the valve. You can measure the volts across the valve to see if it's varying as expected. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laptom Posted October 22, 2012 Author Share Posted October 22, 2012 OK, will do that this wednesday. What is expected? Cold = more open (say 80% of 12V = 9.6V on DC). When warm (80 degrees) = closed (say 25% of 12V = 3V on DC)? How are the sensor values? To my opinion it looks good and normal values. Thanks for your help guys! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted October 23, 2012 Share Posted October 23, 2012 Do you not have a table or gauge readout that shows what the PWM value (%) is? That will tell you what's expected - and remember it's as a percentage of the current battery voltage (~14v if the engine is running). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laptom Posted October 24, 2012 Author Share Posted October 24, 2012 Yep, that table is working. Did some checking this evening. - Idle is stable on lpg and petrol when the pwm is blocked. - Idle valve is slightly open when not in use. - At 12v the valve is fully open. - ms only sends +12v to the valve. On different cranking duty cycles (initial 80%, but tried 0-10-20-etc) the signal remains 12v (dis-connected the coils). So my tip122 circuit is not working. Need some investigation on that. Still gonna check the idle valve on different voltages to be sure it works and to determine the exact close value. Any tips on the idle valve circuit? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 What PWM frequency do you have in MT? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 Remember MS is grounding the valve, the 12v is on the other side. If the MS is not grounding the valve to open it you will have 12v (relative to vehicle ground) on both wires. If you measure volts across the valve that will tell you how "on" it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheRecklessEngineer Posted October 25, 2012 Share Posted October 25, 2012 Just a thought.... If measuring a square wave with a mutlimeter, how accurate would it be? I'm sure it'll show some difference, but would it be a linear relationship between displayed voltage and duty cycle? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laptom Posted October 25, 2012 Author Share Posted October 25, 2012 Using Tunerstudio. Pwm freq is not the same a the duty cycle? I tried every duty cycle and the wires of the idle valve kept reading 12v. On ac the reading was 0v. I was aware that ms grounds the idle valve, +12v is coming from the orange wire. I will check the diagrams tomorrow, should something easy to fix. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted October 26, 2012 Share Posted October 26, 2012 Frequency is how many times a second it turns on and off, duty cycle is the % of time it spends ON compared to OFF (it's a ratio). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laptom Posted October 29, 2012 Author Share Posted October 29, 2012 Hi FF, Still a bit rusty on my basic electronics . OK, guys, did some measuring last weekend and I'm a bit confused right now... Wiring: 1. Checked the wiring to idle valve. Pin 30 from MS ECU to connector idle valve = 0 ohm --> OK 2. Orange wire on connector idle valve = switched 12V --> OK 3. Pins on idle valve reversed, no change on behaviour (just insanity checking, polarity should be no issue) --> OK Idle Valve: 4. Checked on DC source the behaviour of idle valve (at home, behind the desk) 100% open = 9V 75% open = 7V 50% open = 6V 25% open = 5.2V 0% open = 3.4V 25% open = 0V --> OK MS: 5. Freq= 10000/x = 100 --> OK 6. Changed MS setting to "Warm-Up" for easy DutyCycle checking on the idle valve (at home, behind the desk) 100% open = 85% DutyCycle 75% open = 62% DutyCycle 50% open = 57% DutyCycle 25% open = 51% DutyCycle 0% open = 40% DutyCycle 25% open = 25% DutyCycle --> OK 7. Changed MS setting to "Closed-Loop". All settings like the MSQ file of Nige (at home, behind the desk) a. Starting nice on 5V-6V on connector idle valve b. After 1 change of RPM, the power is 12V on connector idle valve --> NOK 8. Changed MS setting with my numbers w.r.t. MSQ file of Nige (at home, behind the desk) - Closed setting on 40% & Minimum setting on 45% a. Same behaviour as on step 6 --> NOK It seems to me the issue is within MS, but the circuit is working on "Open Loop" (Warm-up). I need to check this on the car, as I only tried this at home. I checked all voltages and resistor values in the PWM circuit, but everything seems normal. Could there be an issue with the Firmware? I will try to upload the firmware and see if this helps. Any ideas? Thanks, Tom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laptom Posted October 31, 2012 Author Share Posted October 31, 2012 Open loop does not work on the car also... I'm out of ideas at the moment. I've ordered a brand new idle valve, but my guess is still the circuit. Any ideas? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laptom Posted November 1, 2012 Author Share Posted November 1, 2012 Found it! My own fault: I'm using the relayboard and you will need to make a short cut on 1 relay to be able to work with the pwm valve... I did this, but also placed the relay back :-( . So when the ms transmitted a DC higher then 50% or so the relay was engaged and placed the full 12v to the idle valve... Stupid, but after 2 hours of measuring we found it :-) . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Noisy Posted November 9, 2012 Share Posted November 9, 2012 Please explain this a little further! I'm currently building a system with relay board and pwm so could do with knowing the fix! Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Laptom Posted November 12, 2012 Author Share Posted November 12, 2012 Hi, Just perform the short cut on the relay board like described in the manual (idle relay closest to the 37pin needs to be short cut), but leave the relay out. Otherwise the driving voltage will enable the relay and putting a steady 12V on the output of the relay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Noisy Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 Found it online now, luckily I spotted this thread! Thanks for your help! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hybrid_From_Hell Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 Oi Wrong thread Sam GTF back over to yours this instance Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Noisy Posted November 12, 2012 Share Posted November 12, 2012 Good job I stumbled across this one Nige cos NOBODY else let me know!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rusty_wingnut Posted November 13, 2012 Share Posted November 13, 2012 This explains why I never got my warm up valve working right! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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