CwazyWabbit Posted October 29, 2012 Share Posted October 29, 2012 Whilst looking at superwinch H14W's (the hydraulic version) I notice that in the pdf copies of the instructions for fitting they state 8000lb max rating but on the website a new one is rated at 14000lb. The fitting instructions are a pdf from a fax sent in 2003 so are probably older still. So the questions are.... What have they changed to uprate it from 8000lb to 14000lb? Is there an easy way to tell by looking at a second hand one? Is there no change at all and just a less conservative way of rating it? Or is the rating in the instructions actually the bumper mount rating rather than the winch rating? any ideas? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CwazyWabbit Posted October 29, 2012 Author Share Posted October 29, 2012 Think I may have answered my own question, the new rating has a winch speed of 3m/min whereas the old one was 8 - 14 m/min So it must be a different hydraulic motor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daan Posted October 29, 2012 Share Posted October 29, 2012 I thin there were 2 different worm ratios as well, 1:45 and 1:48 from memory. Daan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted October 29, 2012 Share Posted October 29, 2012 Also to do with safety factors and even which rating of cable/rope it had fitted. Its predecessor, the Fairey 5000, was rated on what size of cable was fitted. I've heard that with the overload cut-out removed they will pull 20,000lbs, but bear in mind the LR chassis is only rated to 8,000 anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikec Posted October 29, 2012 Share Posted October 29, 2012 Mine has a plate on the bumper saying max pull 3600kg which was in 2004, is it not down to the prv setting? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted October 29, 2012 Share Posted October 29, 2012 Mine has a plate on the bumper saying max pull 3600kg which was in 2004, is it not down to the prv setting? On hydrualic ones it's the PRV, on shaft-drive it's the PTO clutch (or shear pin), but these are set at varying levels depending what it's used for; a mate has an ex-electric board 110 with an H14W that was used for cable-pulling, so the PRV was set so low it wouldn't actually pull the 110 over your foot! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikec Posted October 29, 2012 Share Posted October 29, 2012 On hydrualic ones it's the PRV, on shaft-drive it's the PTO clutch (or shear pin), but these are set at varying levels depending what it's used for; a mate has an ex-electric board 110 with an H14W that was used for cable-pulling, so the PRV was set so low it wouldn't actually pull the 110 over your foot! That's what I mean, so the hydraulic one could have the prv set so max pull is 8000lb even though the winch itself is rated to 14,000? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve b Posted October 29, 2012 Share Posted October 29, 2012 It also depends on the operating pressure specs for the pump and motor , some motors are 160 bar and others are much higher . I have seen plenty of pto driveclutchs welded or bolted solid too @ cwazywabbit - you should be able to work out the line pull for a given flow and pressure , knowing the ratio of the wormdrive cheers Steveb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CwazyWabbit Posted October 29, 2012 Author Share Posted October 29, 2012 Cheers for everyones input I'm actually installing a hydraulic Fairey 525 at the moment and whilst looking at the various information out there came across this difference in ratings on the H14W's. I was beginning to wonder if I should change plan and get a H14 instead given the significant increase in rating on the later ones (until I noticed the speed difference). By the looks of things if I do need/want more power it's the motor that needs changing and if I want to keep the speed up it'll be the pump as well. The winch itself looks more than capable of far more than the 8000lb. I shall do some research on the current pump and motor to see what the maximum pressure should be and do some calcs. Thanks again everyone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 Aye, don't worry - compare the build of the F5000 to any "8000lb" electric winch and you can see it is plenty up to the job! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikec Posted October 30, 2012 Share Posted October 30, 2012 Cheers for everyones input I'm actually installing a hydraulic Fairey 525 at the moment and whilst looking at the various information out there came across this difference in ratings on the H14W's. I was beginning to wonder if I should change plan and get a H14 instead given the significant increase in rating on the later ones (until I noticed the speed difference). By the looks of things if I do need/want more power it's the motor that needs changing and if I want to keep the speed up it'll be the pump as well. The winch itself looks more than capable of far more than the 8000lb. I shall do some research on the current pump and motor to see what the maximum pressure should be and do some calcs. Thanks again everyone. Let us know what you find Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CwazyWabbit Posted October 31, 2012 Author Share Posted October 31, 2012 Let us know what you find On the set I'm installing (Fairey 525 Hydraulic ex-utilities) Pump P1BAN2522 HL20 002 (decoded using http://www.hpicanada...ance Curves.pdf and http://www.ozhat.com...at_türkiye.pdf ) Series 2,5 22,83 cc Peak pressure 225 bar (minimum of 10 seconds between peaks) Max pressure intermittent duty 0.85 x peak = 191.25 bar (maximum of 30 seconds) Max pressure continuous duty 0.75 x peak = 168.75 bar Max RPM at 191.25 bar 2800rpm Max RPM at 168.75 bar 3000rpm Max RPM at <100 bar 3500rpm Motor M3BAN2026 HA20 002 (decoded using http://www.hpicanada...sic_English.pdf ) Bi-Directional Series 2 27.6cc Min RPM 200 Max RPM 3000 Max pressure at min RPM 150 bar Max pressure at max RPM 150 bar The superwinch instructions say the PRV is set at 172 bar which is more than the motor is supposed to handle ...... Drum diameter is 90mm Gear ratio 48:1 So plugging this into some calulations I found on another thread .... http://forums.lr4x4....=20#entry479284 A 27.6 cc/rev motor at 172 bar, produces a theoretical (assuming no friction loss) torque of: Tmotor = 27.6 cc/rev x 172 bar / 62.8 = 75.6 Nm Taking Fairey 525 gear reduction as 48:1, then theoretical (assuming no friction loss) torque of: Tdrum = Tmotor x 48 i.e. 75.6 x 48 = 3628.8 Nm Taking drum diameter as 90 mm, and rope diameter as 11mm, give radius of 1st layer of rope as: R1 = (90 mm + 11 mm) / 2 = 50.5 mm Then rope pull Prope is Tdrum / R1 i.e. Prope = 3628.8 Nm / 50.5 mm = 71.86 kN Now 71.86 Kn /9.81 m/s^2 = 7325 Kg If I redo the calculation using the max pressure of 150 bar which the motor is supposed to have then the result is 6387 Kg for the first layer pull. So either the friction loss is massive, my calculations are wrong, I have misread the pump/motor specs or the quoted pull is very conservative. Oh well was interesting ..... guess I should get back to finishing the install and see what it actually does. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daan Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 The friction loss of a wormdrive with this ratio is indeed massive. On startup it can be as low as 25 percent efficient, but much better once running. Daan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CwazyWabbit Posted October 31, 2012 Author Share Posted October 31, 2012 Cheers Daan What sort of efficiency would we expect during running? If it were around 50% that would get us to the original 8000lb rating and all would be explained..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daan Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 Thats the big question; I dont know the answer, unless the manufacturer gives an input torque, you cant really say. You can only measure the pull and relate this to pressure and make your conclusions from there. Bear in mid there is a lot of other things going on in the winch @ 8000lb, it is very hard to predict the outcome. Out of interest, what made you decide to go Hydraulic, rather than mechanical? I cant see much advantage, unless it is an engine driven pump which might give you a bit more speed, but at 1:48 ratio it will never be fast. Daan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CwazyWabbit Posted October 31, 2012 Author Share Posted October 31, 2012 I wanted to have the option of using a hydraulic log splitter as well at some point and this set up came with aux connections so I have the option of doing that now. Although fitting the mechanical set up would have probably been less work than the hydraulic and wouldn't have added as much weight either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikec Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 What have you done about a filter? Mine, that I've not fitted yet, gas two one on the suction side in the tank and the other an inline one on the return, I've never found out yet where the inline one actually fits on the car? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CwazyWabbit Posted October 31, 2012 Author Share Posted October 31, 2012 The tank that came with mine has the suction filter inside the tank and also has the return filter sitting inside the tank. Suction one is like a very fine gauze and the return filter is a canister type that is accessed via big screw cap on the top of the tank. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B reg 90 Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 I measured up the worm and wheel and used the British Standard for worm wheels to calculate the efficency. About 40% at low to no speed and upto a max of 82% at high speed. Adrian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CwazyWabbit Posted October 31, 2012 Author Share Posted October 31, 2012 Cheers Adrian That's a really useful nugget of information! Just for clarity what do we class as low and high speeds? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B reg 90 Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 Low speed - input at 50 rpm High speed 3000 - 4000 rpm input speed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CwazyWabbit Posted October 31, 2012 Author Share Posted October 31, 2012 Thanks again Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daan Posted November 1, 2012 Share Posted November 1, 2012 Good to see the librarian came along! Daan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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