Night Train Posted February 20, 2013 Share Posted February 20, 2013 Just to throw a 'spanner' in the works.... If I was building a powered trailer I would give it electric drive. The throttle pot for the controller would be linked to the overrun brake damper in the drawbar so that it only drives when the drawbar is pulled and brakes when the drawbar is pushed. That would allow the trailer to drive only enough to counter its own rolling resistance and never push the towing vehicle. It also removes all the drive line complexities leaving only the tow hitch and a set of control cables for reverse, power on, and emergency disconnect. A reversing contactor set, triggered by the reversing lights, would switch the motor to allow reversing. The throttle pot can be a 'wigwag' centre off type (like a radio controller joystic) so that it acivates in the pull or push directions as switched by the reversing contactors. The motor can be direct connected to the diff pinion and the batteries carried low in the trailer chassis. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
discomark10 Posted February 20, 2013 Share Posted February 20, 2013 Just to throw a 'spanner' in the works....If I was building a powered trailer I would give it electric drive. The throttle pot for the controller would be linked to the overrun brake damper in the drawbar so that it only drives when the drawbar is pulled and brakes when the drawbar is pushed. That would allow the trailer to drive only enough to counter its own rolling resistance and never push the towing vehicle. It also removes all the drive line complexities leaving only the tow hitch and a set of control cables for reverse, power on, and emergency disconnect. A reversing contactor set, triggered by the reversing lights, would switch the motor to allow reversing. The throttle pot can be a 'wigwag' centre off type (like a radio controller joystic) so that it acivates in the pull or push directions as switched by the reversing contactors. The motor can be direct connected to the diff pinion and the batteries carried low in the trailer chassis. Good idea, it would have to set up right or you'd have a nice kangaroo on the back Would it be an idea to make it all electric? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
o_teunico Posted February 20, 2013 Author Share Posted February 20, 2013 Second diff, with just the pinion, will be bolted in place of the welded diff pan. How two pinions joined to just one crownwheel are adjusted is a real mystery for me. In the past this system has been extremly unreliable, due to CW overload. Today, with DIY diff pegging kit cheaply avalible this could be sorted, but again we have the very short propshaft problem. Enlarging 2nd to 3rd axle wheelbase from 40 to 60" and the use of short nose "Wolf" style diffs will certinly help with prop length issues. Dieseldog, I have been thinking about your hydraulic drive idea, and maybe a cheap hybrid machanical-hydraulic setup coul be arranged: an hydraulic pump runing from axle 2 connected to a motor in axle 3. Pump and engine will need to be correctly sized for 1:1 ratio. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
o_teunico Posted February 20, 2013 Author Share Posted February 20, 2013 This could help with electric drive idea http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/ Some time ago I tried to make an electric bike, but DIY electric car community wasn´t very impressed with the idea. http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/planning-derbi-bike-conversion-80236.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
o_teunico Posted February 20, 2013 Author Share Posted February 20, 2013 For a double diff setup I will need: Tools Grinder (have it 0 Eur.) Drill (have it 0 Eur.) Welder (have it 0 Eur.) Tapping set (have it 0 Eur.) Parts Rover diff (have it 0 Eur.) Studs for fixing rover diff to new tapped holes (have them 0 Eur.) Spare propshaft for adaptation to new length (have it 0 Eur.) Two Rover diff gaskets (Paddock 0.61 Eur. + VAT + p&p Paint In theory with some paint and less than 2 Eur. I could build it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigelw Posted February 20, 2013 Share Posted February 20, 2013 For a double diff setup I will need:Tools Grinder (have it 0 Eur.) Drill (have it 0 Eur.) Welder (have it 0 Eur.) Tapping set (have it 0 Eur.) Parts Rover diff (have it 0 Eur.) Studs for fixing rover diff to new tapped holes (have them 0 Eur.) Spare propshaft for adaptation to new length (have it 0 Eur.) Two Rover diff gaskets (Paddock 0.61 Eur. + VAT + p&p Paint In theory with some paint and less than 2 Eur. I could build it I so wanna see how you get on with this!!! I have an idea that would use a double drive from the back of the transfer case an altered diff nose angle and a 45 degree bevel box mounted on top of the mid axle, but my build will be on a self built space frame to get round as many of the obstacles as possible but be beefed up as the hardware is made to run properly I think, not road going but a type of farm vehicle built for my own pleasure. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill van snorkle Posted February 20, 2013 Share Posted February 20, 2013 Whether pegged or not, the double diff method could never be made reliable using Rover diffs. It's not the crownwheel that gets overloaded but the tiny pinion, particularly the 4.7 ratio one which is barely strong enough to drive one axle in offroad conditions, never mind two.Adjusting crownwheel to pinion mesh pattern would be difficult because they are manufactured and lapped in pairs, so you will end up prematurely wearing out 2 diffs providing they didn't explode beforhand. Whilst Night Trains suggestion for electric drive is an excellant one for the data base along with hydraulic drive,These solutions have little chance of being applied in Teunico's case due to financial considerations.He does appear to have a yard full of Landrover parts however and to be realistic,mechanical drive is the only option, at least in the short term. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
o_teunico Posted February 20, 2013 Author Share Posted February 20, 2013 Have found money for gaskets and paint! It's not the crownwheel that gets overloaded but the tiny pinion Maybe we need to source another ENV diff for the trough drive. Dieseldog, any sketch of your build? It will be nice to see what other ideas are around there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Night Train Posted February 21, 2013 Share Posted February 21, 2013 This could help with electric drive ideahttp://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/ Some time ago I tried to make an electric bike, but DIY electric car community wasn´t very impressed with the idea. http://www.diyelectriccar.com/forums/showthread.php/planning-derbi-bike-conversion-80236.html I am admin on that forum. Sorry your thread didn't get any replies. The project would not have worked with the components you were planning on using. Reading about similar projects threads, and the information and wiki forums, may have been more helpful to you in determining what you would need for your project. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
o_teunico Posted February 22, 2013 Author Share Posted February 22, 2013 Thaks Night Train! I have temporally putted aside the redneck electrobike, as I´m trying to finish the 1977 Roller caravan restoration http://www.forocamping.com/foro/post448547.html#p448547 before attempting any new short term project. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill van snorkle Posted February 22, 2013 Share Posted February 22, 2013 Oops, double post. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill van snorkle Posted February 22, 2013 Share Posted February 22, 2013 "Have found money for gaskets and paint!" "Maybe we need to source another ENV diff for the trough drive." If things are that tight save your gasket money for food.Buy a packet of cornflakes and make the gaskets from the box. If you intend to fit one ENV to the trailer, then you would need another 2 ENV's for the through drive. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
o_teunico Posted February 22, 2013 Author Share Posted February 22, 2013 Following Bill´s advice, I have traded the gasket money for some kornflakes with high quality box for making gaskets If we source a second ENV we will use Rover in trailer, for taking costs down. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill van snorkle Posted February 22, 2013 Share Posted February 22, 2013 I still believe double diff drive is not the answer on a short rear overhang vehicle.If you run the propshaft direct from the double diff to the trailer, you will be bending propshafts all day everyday. If you try a 2 piece propshaft, the one from the double diff to the support bearing on the LandRovers rear crossmember will be too short and running at too steep an angle even with the LandRover standing on level ground,not even allowing for the fact that the axle can drop a further 6'' or so with suspension droop. Do you have an old centre PTO from a Series LandRover lying around in your vehicle graveyard? It may be possible to adapt one of those to the LT230 transfercase. The female splines of the dog clutch adaptor could be made by drilling a series of holes to the front face of an old series mainshaft or high range gear.The holes would match the pitch circle and spline count of the LT230 PTO dogs.Once the holes are done the gear is bored out so that the holes are cut in half. The back face of the Series mainshaft or high range gear already has the correct dog teeth to match the series PTO dog clutch . You just need to fabricate a cotton reel shaped adaptor housing, consisting of a piece of pipe with a flange at both ends. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigelw Posted February 23, 2013 Share Posted February 23, 2013 Can I tempt you with this little trinket Mr. Van Snorkel? Found whilst surfing the tube, sorry it is a little grainy but very impressive!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill van snorkle Posted February 23, 2013 Share Posted February 23, 2013 Alas, I am afraid not Mr Deiseldog69. I did begin building another 6x6,a station wagon around 20 years ago with 3 Salisburies and a wheelbase of 60" + 65",with front and centre steering, but then before I was able to finish it off, a certain lady began a project of her own in attempting to domesticate and house train me for a number of years. Unfortunately most of the mechanical components on that vehicle got nicked while my property was unattended for some months. i'm getting to the stage where i'm getting a strong sense of my own mortality,and Vapor builds on the internet are much easier and come together much quicker than actually doing it in the metal. But if there was some local enthusiast who was genuine about building a 6x6, I would seriously consider donating my old thru drive drop box,prepared107'' chassis, rear bogie spring pivots etc to the cause when I ready for the old codgers home. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigelw Posted February 23, 2013 Share Posted February 23, 2013 i'm getting to the stage where i'm getting a strong sense of my own mortality,and Vapor builds on the internet are much easier and come together much quicker than actually doing it in the metal. But if there was some local enthusiast who was genuine about building a 6x6, I would seriously consider donating my old thru drive drop box,prepared107'' chassis, rear bogie spring pivots etc to the cause when I ready for the old codgers home. It's funny how you used that phrase as I liken some of the thing's I read on some forums as exactly that! I have a very current project Discovery1 that is eating it's way through what cash I have faster than an alcoholic in a bar, but slowly it comes together, to be honest I have always been a creative thinker and although on this poxy rock there are really very few mods you can drive the roads with but back in the UK before the economic crash I was busy building a 6X4 RRC fifth wheel tractor unit to tow a home built custom fifth wheeled horse box for my daughter, but the slump and a money hungry now ex wife saw the end of that and a couple of other old trucks I had. But for the future building something for the farm or just for use on our 8 hectares would be enough, and an engineering project for something different in my own personal take on it, I am trying to organize two projects for next winter, one personal and one a joint venture with another guy, with a 130 Defender, I am belt and braces here as I have been let down on projects so many times before that I know if I don't set money aside and get a plan together I will end up sitting on my hands next winter due to being blown out at the last minute and that really won't do!! Lot's of creative thinking came through from this thread but for me now it has been done to death and with so many concepts already in it I doubt there could be anything new to come from it? I would like to see a separate thread from tuenico showing us his way forward so we can keep this as just reference for the ideas, through drive axles that would be custom made and purposely heavy duty compared with Rover axles would be a good way forth but expensive!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill van snorkle Posted February 24, 2013 Share Posted February 24, 2013 Yes Mr Deiseldog.I think I've spent all my chips on this thread and can't think of anything else that I can contribute.Perhaps when the Spanish economy picks up again, Teunico will be able to make a definate start on something, beit a powered trailer or a rigid 6x6.Then we can offer encouragement and moral support. I might do the powered trailer thing myself, not necessarily for carrying extra cargo, and only if I am convinced that it with improve my vehicles already exceptional cross country ability. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
o_teunico Posted February 26, 2013 Author Share Posted February 26, 2013 Do you have an old centre PTO from a Series LandRover lying around in your vehicle graveyard? Some years ago we found a SIII with one of those attached to a 220VAC generator. Both me and brother were students with no job then and we couldn´t afford it. a certain lady began a project of her own in attempting to domesticate and house train me for a number of years I know also another lady that started similar project with me... Defender cufflinks Range Rover Sport TDV6 HSE for me and SEAT 1400 (ex-grandpa) for her. One of the gifts The label for the gifts (home brewed licour) was made with a LR cartoon sourced from the web. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
o_teunico Posted February 26, 2013 Author Share Posted February 26, 2013 Back on topic, "vapour build" is certainly a good deffinition for the project. My brother has been saving money for a new MIG/MAG welder and is also looking for a good deal on a secondhand lathe. Now is up to him to develope a real "metal" prototype using his SANTANA and LR trailer. In this tread there are a lot of ideas. Now it´s time for testing and trial-error, but unfortunately I cannot ,at the moment, afford a "metal" build. When Dieseldog mentioned a suspended axle in post #15 that idea didn´t appealed me very much, but after 11 pages of discussion it will be the way to follow on a "metal build" for me. Seeing it in the Krupp Protze opened my eyes. Perfect car for my needs will be something with a five door Disco body, suspended mid-axle with full-size tyres, powered trailer and some kind of underdrive. If my brother starts a proto 6x6 I will post it in the vehicle build and specials forum. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill van snorkle Posted February 26, 2013 Share Posted February 26, 2013 A bit off topic, but just in case anyone who knows me personally is reading this thread,When I mentioned the "certain lady" in the earlier post, I wasn't referring to my recently deceased wife. The only regret I have from that union is the tragic way it ended. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
o_teunico Posted February 26, 2013 Author Share Posted February 26, 2013 I´m sorry for that, Bill Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill van snorkle Posted February 27, 2013 Share Posted February 27, 2013 I´m sorry for that, Bill Thankyou Teunico. I just didn't want any of my 4wd friends thinking that I was making disparaging comments about my dear wife. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Ian Posted February 28, 2013 Share Posted February 28, 2013 Hi Have had a very frustrating few days trying to log in, as some of you know I am retired and living the good life in Spain so can only vapour build. fascinating reading. years ago I designed and made a six wheel conversion now made by Foley Special Vehicles. Not suitable for this application but we did encounter many of the probs discussed. One of my favourites is the Ford 9 thro axle with extended pinion, but not enough demand to make it commercial, Another thought I had was the vertical pinion and bevel boxes on the top (yes I know there are lube probs to solve ) or finally which I did not make but still like the idea is the modified LT230, add a fabricated BW chain box to the back face, approx 70mm, not a diy job!! and possibly the extra 70 mm would kill it but worth a thought. Great stuff. keep it coming. Ian Ashcroft Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
o_teunico Posted February 28, 2013 Author Share Posted February 28, 2013 Ford 9 thro axle with extended pinion Maybe importing something, instead of building, from USA to complete the "Force9" range will be adecuate for the little demand it will have (not many 6x6 arround there). vertical pinion and bevel boxes on the top Like Rockwells? add a fabricated BW chain box to the back face, approx 70mm There are 70mm shorter rear outputs for LT230. With it and the BW chain it will have same size as stock and no there will be no need for new propsahfts for axles 1 and 2. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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