Newbie: Disco 6x6 from Spain

[bill van snorkle]

from:

http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Rear_wheel_bogie,_showing_torque_reaction_arrangements_(Manual_of_Driving_and_Maintenance).jpg

Thank you Wikipedia. Looks like quite an interesting torque reaction setup with a centrally hinged rocker with some kind of trunion arrangement allowing for sideways movement for articulation.

Thankyou Jaime, It is beginning to make some sense now that the top links are included.

The drawings are a little blurred but I wonder if both top links are interconnected via some type of Watts Linkage ? The term 'Torque Reaction Bogie' suggest something like that, but on second thoughts, a Watts link would only be effective if both drive axles always had equal traction. Otherwise 'BANG' both propshafts would be destroyed.

If only Teunico would go visit the King of Spain, all would be revealed.

O'teunico, The LandCruiser transfercase is gear not chain drive. The early so called 'one piece' alloy casing is slimmer and lighter than a series Landrover case, and much easier to bolt to the earlier Rover pinion housings. The distance between input and output shafts is around 25mm greater, and there are about a zillion of them lying, scattered around the planet. They are virtually free over here.

If it was satisfactory to weld a mounting flange onto Toyota pinion housings, I would use those instead because they are a much stronger diff and more capable of driving on the 'coast' side of the gear teeth. I also suspect that the earlier pinion splines are identical to the transfercase input gear splines. If so that means less modifications/expense required to get things together.

[o_teunico]

and there are about a zillion of them lying, scattered around the planet

Unfortunatelly it was never sold in Spain (except Canary island). What about MQ Patrol? These ones were locally built here and spare are easy and cheap to obtain.

Teunico would go visit the King of Spain, all would be revealed

Will phone tomorrow Juan Carlos

[Nigelw]

I got more chance of dating Beyoncé than you have of getting him on the line

[bill van snorkle]

Unfortunatelly it was never sold in Spain (except Canary island). What about MQ Patrol? These ones were locally built here and spare are easy and cheap to obtain.

Will phone tomorrow Juan Carlos

Ask Mr Carlos if you could borrow the Merc for a day or three for a bit of testing, strip down and evaluation.

Don't really know about MQ transfercases, although there is one fitted behind the V8 in my Stage One LandRover.

[o_teunico]

At the premises of the Guardia Real, in the Pardo palace, there is a museum that can be visited, 6X4 MB included.

Only three were ever built, and two were destroyed during WWII, so the one given as a birthday present from Hitler to fascist Franco is the only one in the world. MB offered a white check. Guardia Real refused, but allowed MB to dissamble it and créate an exact copy.

http://desguacemotocoche.blogspot.com.es/2012/11/la-coleccion-de-coches-de-la-casa-real.html

[bill van snorkle]

At the premises of the Guardia Real, in the Pardo palace, there is a museum that can be visited, 6X4 MB included.

Only three were ever built, and two were destroyed during WWII, so the one given as a birthday present from Hitler to fascist Franco is the only one in the world. MB offered a white check. Guardia Real refused, but allowed MB to dissamble it and créate an exact copy.

http://desguacemotocoche.blogspot.com.es/2012/11/la-coleccion-de-coches-de-la-casa-real.html

The country of Spain could use a blank cheque about now I reckon. I wonder if MB will create an AMG version of the beast? If I could borrow it I would create a BVS version, but when they received their one back, I can't guarantee that it wouldn't have LandRover diffs underneath it.

Anyone know when Peugeot stopped using worm drive diffs under their passenger cars? and if they ever made any for the French Colony's in Africa with tandem rear drive?

[Jamie_grieve]

Here's something to keep you amused o_teunico,

You may find that mobility scooters are subject to different regulations in your oppressive regime that would allow you to get silly with your ideas.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=owFRcin2zqw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-BQ9sRxGoQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8A8AGEwATBs

I'm trying really hard not to make one with portals and a V8!!

[Jamie_grieve]

Looks like a DAF 328 would yield most of the bits for a full size version.

[bill van snorkle]

LOl, this will make you jealous O'teunico ! We just had a Federal election in Australia last weekend.

One of the candidates that was voted into the Senate is a 4wd enthusiast who campaigned on policies of keeping all our forest/mountain trails open, and giving the right to responsibly modify our vehicles without government 'Big Brother' interference !

The "responsibly" part probably rules out anything related to stuff that I have ever done or plan to do though lol !

[o_teunico]

Oh yes, I like it! Nice invention. I agree: better with a V8!

Bill, could you please pack and send that candidate in time for our elections?

[bill van snorkle]

Bill, could you please pack and send that candidate in time for our elections?

Yep, you can have him once we get 2 or 3 Mog Rovers up, running and approved.

[Nigelw]

I just wish Europe could implode on itself and let the radicals loose to let folk live a life not consider us hamsters that are needed to power their wheels of progress through taxation.

I actually wish we had the Portuguese system of being able to have things written in on the vehicle papers, now that would make a nice way forward even if we have to pay for it

Bill, what type/strength chain would be necessary for chain box bogie? I have an idea for a piece of equipment for the farm but weight carrying on the back will be interesting if it were only 6X2 I think!!!

[Jamie_grieve]

Chain size depends on the sprocket size, most chain drive equipment doesn't really have more than 3/4 chain but uses big driven sprockets to reduce stress. The old Kenworth in the photo probably has about a 20" sprocket or tumbler as they were called on crawlers. I used to drive a KATO HD 750 excavator with a worn out chain drive. It was a disaster when it jumped off as it was always when it was under pressure climbing up or going down something. The chains and sprockets out of an old Argo cat might be handy for you if you found some bigger sprockets to be driven or you could get the complete chain drive and bogie from an old grader if you need something heavy. What you thinking of building?

[bill van snorkle]

Chain size depends on the sprocket size, most chain drive equipment doesn't really have more than 3/4 chain but uses big driven sprockets to reduce stress. The old Kenworth in the photo probably has about a 20" sprocket or tumbler as they were called on crawlers. I used to drive a KATO HD 750 excavator with a worn out chain drive. It was a disaster when it jumped off as it was always when it was under pressure climbing up or going down something. The chains and sprockets out of an old Argo cat might be handy for you if you found some bigger sprockets to be driven or you could get the complete chain drive and bogie from an old grader if you need something heavy. What you thinking of building?

Looks very similar to the bogie off a WW2 Pacific tank transporter. Wynns or Pickfords in the UK used demobbed Pacifics for heavy haulage work. The roads authorities might not let them get away with it these days, because the exposed chain and total loss lubrication would leave a trail of oil wherever the vehicles travelled. A bit like Land Rovers actually. Lol

Jaime, do you know what the kenworth suspension used to prevent the chains from coming off when the axles articulated at angles independent of the single central drive axle?

[Nigelw]

Looking to build a timber truck for the back meadow and forest, we got really soft ground here and I want to get a bit of weight distribution going on but by putting a third axle on it I can build my own toy but the extra weight on the back end will not give help with traction, engine and drive train is coming from a Lada Riva saloon car, RWD and loads going to scrap so parts a plenty.

I have not the skills or workshop to build proper gear boxes so chain boxes will allow good margin for error on my behalf, this is not for the road and will only ever do short runs but I want to try my hand at something small to start me off.

Of course this project is for after I have finished my own project Discovery.

[Jamie_grieve]

Jaime, do you know what the kenworth suspension used to prevent the chains from coming off when the axles articulated at angles independent of the single central drive axle?

I've no idea, I don't get it at all. The torsion bar setup is clever but I don't see how the articulation was achieved without any clever chain stuff going on.

I haven't been all the way through it but if you find the answer, let us know!!

http://www.kws900.com/other/CHAIN_DRIVEN_TANDEM_BEAR_AXLE_VEHICLE.pdf

[Ex Member]

What about building a "normal" linked suspension and use air spring. Join the air bags together on each side for the rear axles to load share and provide a bogy action. This leaves a lot of flexibility on the design of the link geometry.

[bill van snorkle]

What about building a "normal" linked suspension and use air spring. Join the air bags together on each side for the rear axles to load share and provide a bogy action. This leaves a lot of flexibility on the design of the link geometry.

With closely coupled axles and the need to keep propshaft universal joint angles real during interaxle articulation, I don't think there is much scope to play around with link geometry. Parallel upper and lower links are almost universal for beam axle cross country bogie designs regardless of the springing medium.

Even individual propshafts from the transfercase to both rear axles doesn't solve the universal joint angle issue. The overhead worm drive diffs as on the old Mercedes and Kruppe 6 wheelers would appear to be the simplest and most elegant means of obtaining double drive, although as previously suggested, modified High 9" Ford diffs could be a slightly more efficient contemporary solution.

This thread has received almost 14,700 views. I wonder if there is a single individual out there who is building a multi wheeler based on the information contained within these pages ? I'm no longer planning anything along these lines.

[Ex Member]

There was some light discussion earlier, but thoughts on PTO driven hydraulic pump driving hydraulic motor on third axle? Pump and motor sized to match speeds in low range to other driven axles.

[bill van snorkle]

There was some light discussion earlier, but thoughts on PTO driven hydraulic pump driving hydraulic motor on third axle? Pump and motor sized to match speeds in low range to other driven axles.

I haven't really delved into hydraulics much. I was discouraged years ago when I looked at the complexity of plumbing and the size of the oil reservoir required to keep the LandRover Mayflower winch operating efficiently. And I would have thought a diff mounted hydraulic motor would work harder and require additional oil capacity and cooling requirements than a low geared winch.

[Nigelw]

The best way forward and backwards too

Hydraulics are amazing especially hydro-static transmissions, now if the final drive from the back axle could be monitored by some means,possibly an ABS sensor then a second sensor on the middle axle it is entirely possible for an ECU controlled hydro stat to actually maintain ground speed in terms of wheel speed between the two axes but any type of cross axle situation unless transverse diffs were applied might see the back axle either dragging or digging holes.

Unless someone who knows more on hydraulics wants to come and educate us I like th idea of it but just not sure exactly how to make it work as there are numerous ground speeds that can be covered and not just in low 1 or 2 , on the subject of cooling the hydraulic system could have it's own cooler system as many of the hydrostat wheeled loaders do, normally oil to water through the radiator then to atmos via the heat exchange of the water and radiator.

[bill van snorkle]

After more recent experimentation with WildFing, my 4x4 LandRover, I would no longer consider 6 wheel drive as the answer to increasing cross country mobility, unless the additional axle/chassis section was detachable in the form of a powered trailer with its own steering axle and articulated only in pitch and roll but not yaw as with a normal trailer. For a rigid chassis, 6wd introduces negatives that outweigh the positives, unless additional complications are included in the design. But most of those have been covered within the various pages here.

[discomark10]

I haven't really delved into hydraulics much. I was discouraged years ago when I looked at the complexity of plumbing and the size of the oil reservoir required to keep the LandRover Mayflower winch operating efficiently. And I would have thought a diff mounted hydraulic motor would work harder and require additional oil capacity and cooling requirements than a low geared winch.

There's a guy in my local LR club that has twin hydraulic winches, he has an enclosed 15L tank and he used it for vehicle recovery.

He said even with almost constant use he had no issues with cooling, but he does also have about 5 meters of coiled up pipe hidden away in the vehicle so might have acted as a cooler

[Team Idris]

There's an American firm that does hydraulic drives to make road truck's 4x4 without a suspension lift. Each front wheel has a motor.

[Daan]

Matt lee tried it with a comp safari buggy, having a motor in the front wheels, only to be selected if the going got tough. He didn't preceed with it, I believe due to it running too hot.

Daan