Newbie: Disco 6x6 from Spain

[o_teunico]

Excellent source of ideas http://www.unusuallocomotion.com/

[o_teunico]

Berliet VPH 6x6 from 1932-36. Bogie suspension betwen axles 2 and 3. Steering in axles 1 and 3. Only two protos made ever. No series due to it´s complexity

[bill van snorkle]

You're not wrong about the complexity of the Berliet. Individual propshafts to each wheel via 90 degree bevel boxes.Long centrally pivoted leaf springs front and rear, all linked to the middle axle.

[FridgeFreezer]

If you have a search you may find some info about SimonR's twisting buggy.

[o_teunico]

Unfortunately Google is not very cooperative today. Have not found any SimonR Buggy.

Twisting Buggy showed this

[o_teunico]

This is Google Images´ answer to "pivoting chassis"

[FridgeFreezer]

SimonR's pivoting buggy here

[o_teunico]

Thanks for the link!

[o_teunico]

Interesting trailer. Could be an option for hinged/twisting chassis, with the advantage of beeing removable. If made light (less than 750kg) it could be done without any type of brakes, keeping costs to minimum.

http://www.scale4x4rc.org/forums/showthread.php?t=41922

It´s coupling will be difficult to make legal

Alternatively this arrangement, with standard type tow pack, could work.

Some chains (compulsory in no-braked trailers) will limit left-rigth movement and thus avoiding the oversteering seen on 101 protos. This will only work with a landy with extremly short rear overhang and trailer with extremly short tow hitch, creating a car-trailer wheelbase similar to that on a 6x6.

[muddy]

For the above you would need a wide angle CV cross on the pto shaft for a new shaft with standard uj at the other end your over €1000 already and I'm not sure how it would cope with the stress.

Fantastic pics of bills 6x6 and write up from DD I wouldn't mind a poster of that for the workshop wall!

Will.

[o_teunico]

Farm tractors use that system, even in powered trailers, and seem to cope well. There is a farm machinery breaker near home that will provide secondhand parts at reasonable prices. Only problem with farm machinery parts is that they are rated to a maximum of 3000rpm. I will calculate diff pinion rpm vs 90km/h (max speed in Spain for 750kg trailer) with various ratios/tyres to see if it could work.

Chains will limit trailer movement to stay within UJ´s limits.

[muddy]

I hear what your saying but I work at a John Deere dealership and have driven tractors for years, a standard uj will not cope with the articulation required. We get about one shaft a week where too tight a corner has been taken with the pto engaged and the resultant mess is not pretty. You would want fine spline shafts (21 spline vs. 6 spline) but even then AFAIK there are only two pto operating speeds 540 and 1000rpm ( save for 540 and 1000ECO ) however it is still only designed to run at 1000rpm so where is your 3000 from?

What is the maximum operating angle on a DC Lr prop this may provide a better candidate.

Will.

Edit: some mid mount pto's are 720rpm but this is nearly always on compact tractors designed primarily as a self propelled mowing machine.

[bill van snorkle]

SimonR's pivoting buggy here

Simons thread finished at page 2 in 2010, with some development work still required to rectify sideslope instability issues.

How is the buggy now? Have the issues been sorted?

Going back to the Berliet 6x6 design. the complex transmission with individual propshafts to each wheel is unneccesary,but the frnt/centre/rear interconnected suspension did offer significant advantages to a non interconnected arrangement in that the 'walking' effect gives a 2 :1 leverage factor when the wheels need to mount a high abrupt obstacle. Example,with a loadsharing rear bogie, when a pair of wheels on an axle climb over a 12 " high step, the balance beam effect means that the vehicles rear chassis weight is effectively halved and also only rises at half the height of the obstacle, in this case 6''. The result is a greatly improved ability and ride when crawling over broken terrain.

[bill van snorkle]

I hear what your saying but I work at a John Deere dealership and have driven tractors for years, a standard uj will not cope with the articulation required. We get about one shaft a week where too tight a corner has been taken with the pto engaged and the resultant mess is not pretty. You would want fine spline shafts (21 spline vs. 6 spline) but even then AFAIK there are only two pto operating speeds 540 and 1000rpm ( save for 540 and 1000ECO ) however it is still only designed to run at 1000rpm so where is your 3000 from?

What is the maximum operating angle on a DC Lr prop this may provide a better candidate.

Will.

Edit: some mid mount pto's are 720rpm but this is nearly always on compact tractors designed primarily as a self propelled mowing machine.

The LandRover 101 FC powered trailer drive, instead of a double Cardan joint, employed two closely spaced individual U joints placed concentric with within the articulating hitch. This arrangement equalised the individual U joint angles without requiring the relatively fast wearing internal equaliser that is necessary in a double Cardan joint. I think most 4WD tractor and Unimog front steering axles employ a similar arrangement. 2 wide angle RangeRover joints bolted back to back should do the job up to 60 degrees. Fabricating the concentric hitch is probably the tricky part, although propshaft yokes from some huge truck might provide the basis for that too.

Teunico. the Google images drawing of the pivoting beam suspension,with regards radius arms, thrudrive etc, strongly resembles the layout of the 6x6 Mercedes G wagon that the Australian Army have recently purchased to replace their 6x6 landRovers. not sure they retained the pivoting beam though. I think the coil spring buckets were welded direct to the chassis.

[o_teunico]

Muddy, I have also worked with tractors and in various workshops, including a JD franchised one. We made propshafts to order and also off-the-shelf ones, wich carried a warning label reading "max 3000rpm".

In the worst case, according to my calculations, with 4,75 ratio and 29" tyres, 3000rpm at the pinion will give 87km/h.

Bill, I never heard about german army 6x6 LR.

[o_teunico]

Muddy, I have also worked with tractors and in various workshops, including a JD franchised one. We made propshafts to order and also off-the-shelf ones, wich carried a warning label reading "max 3000rpm".

In the worst case, according to my calculations, with 4,75 ratio and 29" tyres, 3000rpm at the pinion will give 87km/h.

Bill, I never heard about german army 6x6 LR.

[o_teunico]

"Australian army". I dont know why I read "german"

[bill van snorkle]

"Australian army". I dont know why I read "german"

Yes, they have been in service for around 20 years or more. built for carrying 2 tons offroad they have a rear bogie suspension consisting of 4 leaf springs interconnected via short rocking beams like a tandem axle trailer and articulation is extremely limited.

They are fitted with Isuzu 3.9 deisels driving the older LT95 transmission, that to drive the 3rd axle is fitted with a PTO similar to the FC101 powered axle trailer vehicle. This PTO gives both high and low range and is the only LandRover built T/case to do so.

Due to long wheelbase, extra wide track, chassis overhang,the overhang and ground clearance of the underslung leaf springs, and poor bogie articulation the cross country ability of these 6x6's is quite inferior to the standard 4x4 110 LandRovers.

[o_teunico]

The famous Perentie.

Mi mind switched to "german" as soon a I read Gwagen. Thats why I got puzzled with that 6x6 german army LR that my mind created in a fraction of a second LOL

[bill van snorkle]

The famous Perentie.

Mi mind switched to "german" as soon a I read Gwagen. Thats why I got puzzled with that 6x6 german army LR that my mind created in a fraction of a second LOL

Your mind probably read AUSTRIAN army. easy mistake to make. Americans do it all the time.

[o_teunico]

I will talk with my brother. He has both a short rear overhang SANTANA 2.500DC and a Land Rover axle based trailer (in fact, the remains of Seferino, our beloved 88" SIIIA). Both vehicles are no longer road-legal and will make a good testbench for the powered trailer idea, beeing budget, and not the laws, the only limitation.

The design could be tested in rough terrain at our parents properety. If we create a good design we will try to replicate it with the Disco and make it road legal.

[o_teunico]

http://forums.lr4x4.com/index.php?showtopic=71288&hl= viking winch&page=3

Can someone please measure the internal diameter of a Salisbury carrier bearing for me? I don't have one to measure.
I'm looking at beefing up the PTO section of an LT230 to drive a 3rd axle via a second transfercase, and I'll never be convinced the standard PTO splined section is up to that task.
Bill.

Posted 05 October 2011 - 10:28 PM

Soren, I have about 4 Lt95s in servicable condition, but the next 6x6 project should it go ahead is for someone else who already has a 200tdi 90..I personally prefer a pinion mounted drop box that I can quite easily make using series t/case parts.That would leave the PTO point available for a crawler box.

Bill, was this 90 6x6 ever built?

[bill van snorkle]

http://forums.lr4x4.com/index.php?showtopic=71288&hl= viking winch&page=3

Bill, was this 90 6x6 ever built?

No, it didn't go ahead Teunico, the owner decided it was too large a committment to make, radically altering a 90 which was and still is a rare model of LandRover here in Aus.

Something worth researching though if you can, is what modification was done to the LT230 PTO spline on back of input gearwhen the Esarco was built.The cross section area of the undercut behind that spline IMO isn't large enough to stand full engine torque in low gear for driving a third axle.Most PTO work that the transfercase was designed for doesn't involve full torque.

[o_teunico]

the owner decided it was too large a committment to make, radically altering a 90 which was and still is a rare model of LandRover here in Aus.

Yes, special and rare landys should be maintained as original as possible, for the future generations.

When you mentioned the Series I LWB as the ideal chassis for a 6x6 conversion I said: "Oh yes, I have one of those". Will I use it for a 6x6 conversion? Certainly not, it´s a very rare hearse conversion that will be restored to it´s former glory. BTW it can be cosidered a family heirloom, as both grandpa and grandma used it in their last terrenial journey.

I have searched unsuccesfully for the exact ESARCO LT230 arrangement.

Does anybody know how this one ended?

http://forums.lr4x4.com/index.php?showtopic=16500&hl=%2Besarco+%2B8x8+%2Boil#entry169273

[bill van snorkle]

That appears to be a nicely built body on the series one. I wouldn't cut it up either.

I believe that even the 8x8 Esarco displayed instability under heavy braking.Certainly the US Stewart and Stevenson version did.

Strange that with all those wheels available to cover the vehicles extremities, they went and built it with so much front overhang.

40 degree approach angle sounds respectable until attempting to cross gulleys, where transitioning fom a 20 degree downslope to a 20 degree upslope will see that approach angle all used up.