109, Modifications

[Bobisok]

Hi Everyone, I've owned Land Rovers for years and don't know why I haven't bothered with forums before, but now I would appreciate some advice. I am currently running a 1969 109 which I use in my business as a Landscape Gardener. I carried out a thorough renovation (not restoration) in 2001 and since then its proved very reliable and cheap at MOT time. However for the previous 5 months the cracks have begun to appear, such as the 2.25 diesel engine is very very tired, using oil, head gasket looks as if its going and just low on everything. Chassis was well plated in 2001 but will eventually need more (echos of the fourth road bridge) and I could really do with a tipper body rather than the hard top that is currently fitted.

My first thought was to sell it and by a defender tipper, but then thought why not build a vehicle fit for my needs and with it being tax excempt then this would help also and avoid the high purchase cost of a suitable defender. Plus the fact that I enjoy working on anything LR.

However someone did mention to me a while ago that if you do too many modifications to a vehicle then it may hit the radar screen with DVLA in that you have changed it too much from its original design and also that I may struggle with insurance. The mods I am considering are: -

1. Engine change, TD4/5 or other diesel option, either way not another 2.25
2. Chassis swap to a galvanised, would like to go for coil sprung version, but woulkd stick to leaf springs if this meant I would keep away from the radar
3. Chassis cab with tipper body

Do you think I am stretching it a bit with all the above or am I worrying for no reason.

Any advice much appreciated.

Regards Bob

[Phil Hancock]

The body has no effect on the eligibility to retain the reg number and tax status, if the new chassis is like for like then that is allowed as well. Changing the engine would only loose you 1 point. Look at the DVLA or is it VOSA points system for vehicle ID.

Copied from another post

chassis or body shell (body and chassis as one unit - monocoque ie direct replacement from the manufacturer) (original or new) = 5 points
suspension = 2 points
axles = 2 points
transmission = 2 points
steering assembly = 2 points
engine = 1 point

You need 8 points to keep the ID.

[snailracer]

There's plenty of material about on swapping in a 200tdi. I think one of the most helpful is http://www.glencoyne.co.uk/

As for the tipper we're just having a new one fitted to the 130 we use for work (gardening, tree surgery etc). Its being done by a company near portsmouth. Pretty reasonable on price and happy to build it to your exact spec.

[Snagger]

The tipper would probably have a sub frame bolted to the chassis, in which case, you are not altering the chassis and will retain the points. An engine upgrade to a 200Tdi would lose just one point, so won't pose an issue, and I can't see any VOSA inspector getting picky about the engine mounting brackets. Changing the suspension type would, however, fall foul of the regs and you'd have to get a Q plate after an SVA test, losing the historic VIN. Good quality parabolic springs will do the job perfectly well without causing those VIN problems - you'll even retain the suspension points as the springs are regarded as service replacements.

[FridgeFreezer]

What they said - as soon as you think "coils, pas, disc brakes..." you may as well sell it & buy a defender. However, you can get a galv chassis from some suppliers that's certified as a direct replacement, even with a PAS box mount added and other mods like engine mounts if required, worth planning ahead as you don't want to be cutting & welding a shiny new galv chassis if you can avoid it.

[Bobisok]

Thanks to all who replied, I've learnt alot in a short space of time. Cheers

[Snagger]

For what it's worth, Fridge and I run very heavily modified 109s. I can't speak for him, but my work is all documented with photos on my blog, all the way from buying the new galv chassis, through each sub assembly rebuild and all the mods. I have a 200Tdi and 110 axles with disc brakes, parabolics, multiple fuel tanks and a plethora of body, interior and accessory mods.

[mickeyw]

Firstly - welcome to the forum.

It sounds like this 109 has been a great tool over the years, and with the right care and attention there is no reason why it can't continue to be.

I agree with what the others have said above, a more modern and less tired engine would be a good upgrade to carry out without causing yourself too many headaches.

I don't wish to start an SVA debate here, but if you are thinking of more major mods, I see no reason to be scared of them. The whole point of whatever inspection is required is to ensure the alterations have been made to a safe and legal standard. If you embark on a project with the rules in mind, and no intention to bodge or hide something, you should have nothing to worry about. The key is to read up on the matter first, then plan around the requirements rather than seeing what you can get away with.

When I read about your thoughts of a tipper body I instantly thought of the Log Rover. Warning - this link will engross you for many hours It is a fascinating project and has been brilliantly executed, including the tipper body.

I am secretly hoping you will opt for some ingenious modifications that will lead to a fantastic project thread, just what we have all been recently thinking there is not enough of. Whatever you decide, good luck with it, and let us know how you get on.

[Soren Frimodt]

With regards to engine, I have some thoughts on that matter that you might take into consideration.

First off Petrol engines, yes I know they are expensive to fill, but IMHO that is where the bad stuff ends. On every other matter they are more cost effective (acquiring the engine itself, parts, wear etc) And run so much smoother, especially in an old Series they absolutely transform the experience of the car with all the noise that is removed and power that is added (compared to 2,25d and even 2,5 N/A)

All of this being said, I have a S2 88" with a 2,5TD engine that I have reconditioned myself, and that is a REALLY good diesel engine in a Series, enough power too rocket you off the lights, and plenty of "oomph" offroad. Only real bad thing (next to the noise, again diesel) is that it has to pre-heat with the glowplugs for at least 30 seconds to start cold, and still it is not overly excited to do so.

Just my 2 cents, use'm as you like

[Snagger]

I had a 2.5nad (12J) in my 109, and had no need for heater plugs most of the time and only 4-5 seconds in sub-zero conditions, and it would start within 1/2 second of turning the key. The engine is fairly smooth and was extremely reliable. That came out for a 200Tdi, and while that starts just as easily (the trick is getting the fuel system 100% airtight to stop fuel draining back down to the tank) and much easier to drive, the noise and vibration is significantly higher than a petrol or the 12J. 19Js are good for Series performance because the gearing is lower than a Defender, but they do crack heads and pistons, so for a tipper or other commercial application of similar weight, you'd want to consider a 2.6 or V8 on gas or a Tdi with some sound proofing. It's swings and roundabouts as to which is best.

[FridgeFreezer]

TBH there's not much point swapping in a 2.6, the V8 beats it on pretty much everything (weight, size, availability, power, economy, reliability, parts, sound). I like the 2.6, my truck originally had one, but unless you already have one there's no good reason to track one down & fit it.

3.5 V8 on gas could be a reasonable prospect but would likely still struggle to match a diesel for economy. 2.8 Isuzu TDi is a good swap, more of everything than a 200/300TDi but does take you outside the LR parts bin.

[Snagger]

Couldn't agree more with the above. 2.6: great if fitted, but not worth a retrofit. V8: great fun and not horrifically dear on gas, but the conversions will cost. Turbo diesels are economical and robust and good to drive, and while they lack the fun of the V8, are generally cheaper to fit as you don't need a secondary fuel system. Older diesels like Tdis can also be run on waste veg oil, if you have a source of clean and water free wvo or svo., but that will require a secondary fuel system with heat exchangers.

I stuck to a Tdi because it keeps maintenance and servicing simpler, all under one brand. It was also simpler to fit, needing fewer custom pats or adaptors. But, there is plenty of scope out there for more adventurous solutions, and I wouldn't want someone to discount the V8 if they can afford the LPG conversion too.

[honitonhobbit]

Makes more sense to buy a newer vehicle and right it off against tax

I do know of a cracking 6x6 tipper with a Nissan FD in it...