simple fuel only parts question

[odl21]

Hello,

I've finally got round to installing my MS2 in my stock '93 Range Rover 4.2. I'm using it only to replace the lucas fuel system as I have a few changes to the engine and mainly due to an untraceable problem with the injection cutting out when idleing and warm and not restarting for about an hour.

Almost everything on this forum relates to fuel +EDIS ignition for people wanting to make a waterproof V8, and so is mostly over the top for my install. I'm using MS2 (for the idle stepper motor control and a relay board, both located under the passender seat in the stock location. I have a few simple questions that i'd be grateful for any help with:

1) which connector plug is the stock fuel injector? Is it the bosch EV1?

2) seems like the rover o2 sensor won't work with MS as it measures backwards being a different design to most o2 sensors? any recommended cheap replacement narrowband sensor that will screw into the stock boss?

3) is it ok to take vacuum from the plenum using a T in the distributor advance hose and running it to the MS?

4) any reason not to use the rover coolant temp sensor instead of a replacement GM one and recalibrate the software for it? It's resistance doesn't seem to be as linear as the GM sensor so i'm slightly concerned how the MS will interpolate the 3 values given.

5) i have a GM sensor for intake air temp. currently pondering on the easiest way to install it. considering drilling and tapping the air filter housing.

6) engine RPM input. I can either use the appropriate pin from the lucas ECU or just connect to the coil -ve. Any reason to do one or the other?

7) could do with an MS2 map to use as a starting point. my engine is a 4.2 but 3.9 would be a start.

thanks!

[mikec]

Im not expert, far from it can't even get mine to run but might be able to help with simple things :0

Think the injector plugs are junior power timer plugs.

Pretty sure you can't take the vacum hose from there, Niges kit takes it from the fuel pressure regulator hose.

That's as far as my knowledge goes :0

[AncientGeek]

1) Junior power timer, but is same as bosch connector.

2) Yes they are different. Last time I looked the normal one used with MS was available at about £15, you can get a quality one from Nige for a bit more.

3) Absolutely NOT, take from the plenum.

4) No reason, Rover values are freely available.

5) That'll work, but it must be in the air flow. Also depends where you live. In a hot climate like mine somewhere on the front bumper works better.

6) usually coil -ve is the default.

7) Can't help with that one but could be translated from an MS1. Required fuel and VE table are probably all you need to get started.

[odl21]

Thanks all!

1) is this the one? http://www.diyautotune.com/catalog/fuel-injector-connector-bosch-ev1-p-111.html

2) that's cheaper than I expected. Only ever purchased wide band sensors before! Buying from 'nige' isn't so convenient though as I'm in New York (although I am British). A look for a 'generic' sensor over here then.

[odl21]

OK, I bought a 3 wire bosch sensor for $30 from summit, a bunch of 3mm silicon vacuum hose and a tee piece and 8 bosch EV1 connectors for $2 each on ebay.

Hopefully this is everything I need. The wire bundle from DIYautotune is very good with each wire printed with is function and MS pin number.

I'm going to manually enter the fuel maps from published in nige's thread and interpolate the values between 3.9 and 4.5 litre versions and add a few more steps around idle and at the top end given the extra spaces in the MS2. I'm going to keep the 14CUX installed and only have a few weatherpack plugs and injector plugs to swap over to switch between that and MS. this way I can happily drive it around to tune it without worrying about getting stuck somewhere and not being able to start it.

[odl21]

I built my loom today and connected everything up with the IAT sensor in open air and one injector not wired (i used my 8th EV1 plug for the rover CTS).

as it all seemed to go smoothly and the sensors all worked, I started the engine.

To my surprise, it actually started then died after a few seconds. I suspect the IAC valve is wired the wrong way and suppose it needs to be removed the test which direction it goes it. TunerStudio has a nice 'idle valve test' tool.

Can someone supply me with the correct settings for the 'injector characteristics' and 'engine constants' screens?

Also could use the number of IAC steps and some working temperature->steps mappings.

And finally, would love to see a screen shot of a 3.9 and 4.5 fuel map. don't seem to be able to find one again in that million page thread!

[Aragorn]

Surely the gains from MS ignition arent just waterproofing? You get much better control over the ignition timing and will end up with far better driveability and likely improved fuel economy over the distributor ignition system...

If you look around, you'll find people who've installed spark only MS and find a huge difference in the way the engine runs. Leaving it on distributor really seems like a poor idea to me.

[odl21]

Surely the gains from MS ignition arent just waterproofing? You get much better control over the ignition timing and will end up with far better driveability and likely improved fuel economy over the distributor ignition system...

If you look around, you'll find people who've installed spark only MS and find a huge difference in the way the engine runs. Leaving it on distributor really seems like a poor idea to me.

perhaps, but that is not today's project. the motivation here is to fix somethings that doesn't work. the ignition is working adequately and can be adjusted to a degree already (just takes more work). also, ignition changes are very visible whereas the fueling-only changes are practically invisible and i'd like to keep the car as stock as possible. after all, it would be far easier to put a 5.0 small block crate motor in and get 400 easy and reliable HP. but that's not the point....

without wanted to sound rude, i'd be grateful of any assistance to the problems i need solving rather that criticism of my choices.

[Quagmire]

If you check extraefi.co.uk and go to the downloads section there are a whole load of base maps to get you started. Might be worth getting them up on the screen and getting some values from there. Either that or someone will be along shortly to give you a map of their own.

[odl21]

nothing for a rover v8 on ms2 though. thanks.

[odl21]

Anyone have the injector specs? Thx.

[odl21]

well, it's running reasonably.

i used the wizard to come up with 'required fuel' (18) and the default map based on the stock power and torque. i needed to add a little more fuel to lower left of the map but also had to bump up 'required fuel' to 23.

i couldn't do too much more as i don't have the oxygen sensor installed. turns out the rover threads are 14mm and a universal 18mm sensor won't fit. didn't read that anywhere on this forum. i will have to drop the Y pipe, drill it and weld a bung in.

it does stumble when i blip the throttle so i guess the accel enrichment is wrong. not much point in continuing without the o2 sensor, so i called it a day.

[odl21]

That was easier than expected. Took about an hour to remove the Y pipe, drill it in front of the right hand rover sensor, weld in a bung, paint it and replace the pipe. didnt even need to jack up the car! Looking forward to auto tuning it with the oxygen sensor later this week.

[odl21]

another couple of hours spend on it today using the auto tune feature. it made a few adjustments - mainly to make it richer but it did result in a rather lumpy map despite the car driving pretty well. i might smooth it out manually. i wonder is this is related to the delay in the exhaust reaching the sensor being incorrect. it should be possible to measure that at various engine speeds by entering incorrect values in the map and seeing how long it takes the sensor to pick up the extra rich (or extra lean) combustion.

in any case, the acceleration enrichment is not right still despite some fiddling (it stumbles on jabs of the throttle). its not easy to get it right with a narrow band. i do have a couple of LC1's which i may wire up to get this right. seems to me that it would not be too hard for software to automatically tune the acceleration enrichment too.

[Hybrid_From_Hell]

Stumbles ion hard throttle are more often Rich / Lean VE

you don't need Wide band, you do need heated 4 wire NB Sensor

Until you have logged it to death with dozens of hrs ;logging and analyisis stay away from AE

Nige

[odl21]

think you are right about the 4 wire. three wire is sometimes bombing down to 0V for extended periods and engine barely runs until it recovers. guess the engine ground is shaky. will try with 4 wire tomorrow. Luckily I ran a spare ground in my loom and used a 4 pin plug for the sensor in anticipation of this! AE seems to be OK now (after another hour of fiddling) except when this O2 condition occurs.

Also, when it idles it is in a portion of the map with an AFR target of 14.7 but the actual measured AFR is about 12.5. why is that? why doesn't the autotune adjust it to provide less fuel? none of the auto tune advanced settings (such as max 50%) are stopping it.

[Hybrid_From_Hell]

look at the exempted settings that are filtered from logs

[FridgeFreezer]

Displayed AFR's are meaningless when you're using a narrowband O2 sensor, ignore them. All a NB can tell you is if it's right or lean. There is no calibration. The gauge in MT just displays numbers by default because some widebands can pretend to be NB with a linearised 0-1v output.

Also, you won't (shouldn't) get auto-tune to sort your idle out (esp. with a narrow-band) as the O2 correction should not be active at that low RPM (usually <1500), and trying to run closed-loop at idle will result in going too lean and hunting.

[odl21]

Hello Again,

I played with the Range Rover again today and this time installed an innovate LC1 wideband controller and sensor that i had lying around. i connected the brown analogue output to the MS o2 connection and told tuner studio that it was a wide band sensor.

Now it has become clearer the problem i'm facing. namely that the pulse width never really changes much. sometimes it jumps a large amount but then stays there even when the TPS changes until it jumps again a few seconds later. as i change the fuel value in the cell of the VE map that its idling on, there is no change in the pulse width or the AFR.

not sure if my injector settings are just completely wrong. I have attached them.

i would like to attach the log but the forum doesn't accept msl or zip attachments. if anyone would be kind enough to take a look, I could email it.

thanks.

edit: log is here: http://owainlloyd.no-ip.com:8080/photos/sticky_pulse_width.msl.zip

and msq is here: http://owainlloyd.no-ip.com:8080/photos/Rover4.2.msq

[FridgeFreezer]

I would not change your injector settings unless you have a very good reason to. That is not a part of tuning, it's fundamental setup, and should be left alone.

[odl21]

I thought I should update the board for closure. I eventually found one setting 'map sample angle' that needed to be changed from 90 to 45 degrees. As soon as i did this, the pulse width started adjusting constantly and everything worked just perfectly. the auto tune very quickly dialed it in using the innovate sensor and a small tweak of accel enrichment improved the throttle response.

Anyway - in case anyone has issues - make sure MAP sample angle is 45 degrees for a V8!