Superwinch 525

[Paul Humphreys]

Right, I need help.

I have a Superwinch 525 on the front of my 110. This driven by a PTO hydraulic pump with a drive motor to turn the winch. I have never had it working right; it works but will not pull the 110 (it powers in and out). I took it to a hydraulic specialist the other day and he put a pressure gauge on it just before the drove motor, it gives a reading of 2500psi. The Specialist said it could be from lack of use? Now I have checke how much oil is in it and its ok. I know it works ok, well as far as it powers in and out. The spool valve says 2500 on it so it must be set to 2500psi as a pressure gauge says 2500psi. I have been told by some that it needs resetting to change the PSI and the specialist says it can not be changed. So who is right? Mine looks a lot like this one http://forums.lr4x4.com/index.php?showtopic=7262

I do not want to have to remove it and put a electric one on.

Thanks in advance

Paul

[BoatBuoy]

Right, I need help.

I have a Superwinch 525 on the front of my 110. This driven by a PTO hydraulic pump with a drive motor to turn the winch. I have never had it working right; it works but will not pull the 110 (it powers in and out). I took it to a hydraulic specialist the other day and he put a pressure gauge on it just before the drove motor, it gives a reading of 2500psi. The Specialist said it could be from lack of use? Now I have checke how much oil is in it and its ok. I know it works ok, well as far as it powers in and out. The spool valve says 2500 on it so it must be set to 2500psi as a pressure gauge says 2500psi. I have been told by some that it needs resetting to change the PSI and the specialist says it can not be changed. So who is right? Mine looks a lot like this one http://forums.lr4x4.com/index.php?showtopic=7262

I do not want to have to remove it and put a electric one on.

Thanks in advance

Paul

I suppose it was an ex-lecy board one. Was it down rated? What is a sensiblle PSI? Guess its the same as on mine. I'm looking to swap the spool valve thats on mine with pugwash's at some point to see if I can improve the performance of mine.

[Paul Humphreys]

Yes it was a Southern Electric one, was converted to Auto when new.

Paul

[Paul Humphreys]

This is the one with 2500 on it.

Paul

[Hybrid_From_Hell]

I would guess here that you need to reset upwards the PRV - Pressure relief valve.

This is located on the sppol block, asnd will loon like a long shank with a nut on the end, when you undo the nut (which is oftebn a cover) this will expose often a nut locking nut and a allen keyed bolyway, undo the lock nut and screw in the bolt, this will increase the pressure that will go off to the winch BEFORE the PRV opens dumping excess pressure back to the tank

If you get really stuck I have a H14 Spool valve in the shed, I can take a pickie and show the PRV unit

HTH

let us know

Nige

[Paul Humphreys]

If you could please.

I think I have the right place, but when I opened it it looked like you could not adjust it. Could it be that I need to replace it as its stamped with 2500 (and its 2500psi) to one what says 4000?

Paul

[Paul Humphreys]

Anyone?

Paul

[Hybrid_From_Hell]

Er

Nope ! you do NOT wnat one that says "4000"

I'll ping a pic up tomorow of what I think you hacve and what yer need to fiddle with

Nige

[pugwash]

I suppose it was an ex-lecy board one. Was it down rated? What is a sensiblle PSI? Guess its the same as on mine. I'm looking to swap the spool valve thats on mine with pugwash's at some point to see if I can improve the performance of mine.

Hey BB i was thinking about this last night. We really should get together one weekend and have a tinker with your truck and see what we can do- fix it up properly- we might need HFH's help as he is much more knwoledgeable than i am!

HFH- Pauls really shouldn't be making 2500psi on no load should it? that doesn't sound right at all- at 2500psi a milemarker is pulling 12,000 lbs isn't it? it would stand to reason that a superwinch should be pulling something similar at 2500psi not just spooling in or out.

Paul have you got your line setup right? how have you set the winch up? could it be a hardware problem?

[Paul Humphreys]

Hi Jim,

As far as I know its set up ok, as it was fitted when new. When I tried it at the weekend it was on the flat. Holding the foot brake down hard, it would pull for about 6-8 inches then stop pulling. It would still power out and in ok with my foot off the brakes.

So 4000psi would be a bit much then .

Paul

[pugwash]

well my PRV on my shiny new spool block is "over" set at 2250 as the MM is only supposed to take a max of 1750 or something similar (basically 2250 is either a momentary recommended peak or is above the recommended peak) either way it is at or above the upper limit for the winch. I figure the winch will survive as long as it only goes up that far briefly.

can you tell describe what setup you have- ie do you have one winch or two? do you have a tank? is the spool block a dual block, or single- are the ports 2-way (i am going to presume they are as that would make sense), do you have a wing mounted control block?

who installed the kit? you or someone else? how long ago? has it ever worked? if so have you ever replaced the filters and oil ever? what gear and rpm is the egine running at to give a pressure of 2500psi? If the winch spools does it spool quickly and smoothly- or does it judder and make funny noises?

if you can answer all these questions then i think it might give everyone a slightly better view of where you are with things and what needs to be fixed.

IIRC a 525 is the earlier version of the H14, so i would assume that the figures would be "roughly" similar. having a dig on the wonderful magical interweb finds this superwinch H14 data which suggests that youshouldn't really be exceeding 1800psi (although you probably can safely). I think you have a setup and design issue which wouldn't be solved by upping the PRV- this would just burst all the seals on the winch!

[Paul Humphreys]

Can you tell describe what setup you have- ie do you have one winch or two? do you have a tank? is the spool block a dual block, or single- are the ports 2-way (i am going to presume they are as that would make sense), do you have a wing mounted control block?

I have only the one winch, the tank in mounted in the back just under the drivers seat. Not sure about if its a one or 2 way but its in the second pic I have posted.

who installed the kit? you or someone else? how long ago? has it ever worked? if so have you ever replaced the filters and oil ever? what gear and rpm is the egine running at to give a pressure of 2500psi? If the winch spools does it spool quickly and smoothly- or does it judder and make funny noises?

The kit would have been fitted by LR I think. I do know it was fitted when new or just after when the auto box was fitted. The oil is alomst all new as I filled it up after the test as some was lost. I have not changed the filter, but will try to get one this week. I had it in 2nd (3 speed auto) at about 1/2 of full revs. The winch will power in/out with out problems when under no/little load.

IIRC a 525 is the earlier version of the H14, so i would assume that the figures would be "roughly" similar. having a dig on the wonderful magical interweb finds this

I have a manual for a 525 here (Superwinch sent it out FOC), but it only covers the winch and not the PTO/hydraulic pump or drive motor.

Paaul

[FridgeFreezer]

Pugwash - the 525 (And F5000 and H14W) work a bit differently to a MM. They are worm drive, so much lower ratio than a MM, and the motor is mounted externally on a little stub shaft (the direct PTO driven ones ditch the motor in favour of a shaft to the gearbox).

In theory these winches would need less pressure but more flow, but I guess they just spec the motors differently to put them at a reasonable operating point for the hydrualics WRT flow/pressure.

H14W Install & Setup guide is here courtesy of HFH, see if that makes any sense to you.

If the winch is getting anything like 2000psi just dragging a landy along flat you have an issue somewhere, upping the pressure is NOT the solution!

As HFH says, many were set to lower pressures to prevent people doing dangerous things - some were set to be used for lifting, in which case the SWL is 1Ton (remember there is a 6:1 safety factor for lifting!) and the PRV will therefore be set to trip at anything over 1 ton load. Some were set for cable tensioning, which aparrently is a bit higher but still nowhere near full pull, again a safety factor is involved as these were never really fitted as recovery winches.

ISTR Nigel_H's is still set for ~1Ton lift and that will still pull his 110 and collection of disco apparatus out of trouble

[pugwash]

hey fridge,

i knew that the H14 was worm drive- hadn't thought it through that it would need a lower pressue but higher flow. As you say the winch isn't setup right at the moment- that superwinch site says you need a flow of 57l- now i'm wondering if the pump is wrong- a pump for an MM pushes 32l.

What would be the effect of lower flow but higher pressure? in this case would this not lead to the effects that paul is having? This would probably have to be coupled to a small diamater pipe somewhere (or a hihgly unlikely blockage) to push the pressure up in the lines.

Paul can you find the name and serial number of your pump? that will at least tell us if you have enough flow- the one in the picture in your first post has a flow of 50% of that rated for a superwinch- even if this is nothing to do with your current problem (and not being a hyrdaulic genius i don't really know- i'm just trying to work through your problem logically) so whatever happens you are going to have one hell of a slow winch.

what are the OD of the pipes between the tank and pump, between pump and spool block, and from block to motor and back? do you have an overcentre valve plumber in BTW?

[Paul Humphreys]

hey fridge,

i knew that the H14 was worm drive- hadn't thought it through that it would need a lower pressue but higher flow. As you say the winch isn't setup right at the moment- that superwinch site says you need a flow of 57l- now i'm wondering if the pump is wrong- a pump for an MM pushes 32l.

What would be the effect of lower flow but higher pressure? in this case would this not lead to the effects that paul is having? This would probably have to be coupled to a small diamater pipe somewhere (or a hihgly unlikely blockage) to push the pressure up in the lines.

Paul can you find the name and serial number of your pump? that will at least tell us if you have enough flow- the one in the picture in your first post has a flow of 50% of that rated for a superwinch- even if this is nothing to do with your current problem (and not being a hyrdaulic genius i don't really know- i'm just trying to work through your problem logically) so whatever happens you are going to have one hell of a slow winch.

what are the OD of the pipes between the tank and pump, between pump and spool block, and from block to motor and back? do you have an overcentre valve plumber in BTW?

I will get all you have asked for tomorrow. I do know its a Dowty (SP?) pump. As for speed, thats not a problem, I only use the 110 for green laning so as long as it gets me, or whoever out, that ok.

Paul

[Hybrid_From_Hell]

Hyd setups are not that complex, and anyone who makes out that they are is trying to baffle with B*LLs*it

You seem to have a basic set up

Tank under seat, this should have EP32 Hyd oil in it to the correct level, there are filters etc but these can take huge abuse.

The PRV is key here.................

The PRV dictates simply the pressure that is allowed to the winch,

whatever the PTO produces.

this way it can be set from struggling to pull a skin from a rice pudding,

to metal tearing strength, ..............................but NOTHING else changes, JUST the PRV setting.

This is done very simply as the PRV is a valve which sends a pre arranged amount of MAXIMUM pressure to the winch, and "Dumps" any excess back through the return pipe to the tank.

I will do some pics of the H14 SB I have and highlight the PRV.

When people talk about the PTO pump and output, most pumps that fit a PTO on a land rover are 'class 2' mounts.

This again in simple terms is the mount "Footprint"

ie any class 2 mount means it will fit (ok so shaft size does come into it as do a couple of other things)

but its a bit like a LR wheel.

LR wheels ALL have the same PCD,

so ALL will fit, some have different widths,

and different offsets, but basically they will fit.....but have differing results

so too with a class 2 mount, you can get 12 18 20 22 28 etc PLM PTOs,

these all will produce diferent flow rates, but, they will produce it at a max, therefore a (for example)

10cc flow vs 20 cc flow means nothing more than at max output the 2nd will be twice as quick as the first.

Worm vs planet drive makes a difference,

but is just speed, providing the PRV is set right, and the pump has a max PSI capability then flow is just speed

worry yea not...this is I think a easy fix once we have worked out whats what

Nige

[FridgeFreezer]

Lower flow pump will give you a slow winch. Higher pressure capacity of the pump will not make any difference as the PRV will strill trip in at the same PSI anyway.

You shouldn't need an overcentre valve with a worm drive, it's irreversible (or should be).

[Paul Humphreys]

The pump is a Dowty, but theres no numbers on it . The in pipe is 37mm O/D. the out pipe is 24mm O/D. The driver motor has 3 pipes, 2x 24mm and one at 15mm. I have some pics, but not very good.http://s60.photobucket.com/albums/h8/Paul_Humphreys/winch/

Paul

[Bull Bar Cowboy]

Right, I need help.

I have a Superwinch 525 on the front of my 110. This driven by a PTO hydraulic pump with a drive motor to turn the winch. I have never had it working right; it works but will not pull the 110 (it powers in and out). I took it to a hydraulic specialist the other day and he put a pressure gauge on it just before the drove motor, it gives a reading of 2500psi. The Specialist said it could be from lack of use? Now I have checke how much oil is in it and its ok. I know it works ok, well as far as it powers in and out. The spool valve says 2500 on it so it must be set to 2500psi as a pressure gauge says 2500psi. I have been told by some that it needs resetting to change the PSI and the specialist says it can not be changed. So who is right? Mine looks a lot like this one http://forums.lr4x4.com/index.php?showtopic=7262

I do not want to have to remove it and put a electric one on.

Thanks in advance

Paul

Paul,

So …….. looking at the above, it appears that the winch is running at a pressure of 2500psi at NO LOAD ?

If this is correct then yes, you have a problem. As the winch turns, (but will not pull the skin off a rice pudding) then this points to either a severe restriction in the Valves, tank, or piping ………… or the winch is a fault. I suspect the latter ……… does it free spool OK ? it maybe that the motor or g/box has partially seized.

The winch running under no load should only show pressures of maybe 100psi max (maybe a little more with a counter balance valve on winch out)

Looking at the specs (IIRC the 525 is an early H14) then the max system pressure for 14000lbs pull should be 1800psi (155bar)………so 2000psi seems about right for the PRV.

I think is is maybe time to investigate the winch ……. Pull off the motor and see if it turns freely……….. also a peek in the g/box may reveal corrosion if it has drunk some H2O in the past.

HTH

Ian

[Paul Humphreys]

Paul,

So …….. looking at the above, it appears that the winch is running at a pressure of 2500psi at NO LOAD ?

If this is correct then yes, you have a problem. As the winch turns, (but will not pull the skin off a rice pudding) then this points to either a severe restriction in the Valves, tank, or piping ………… or the winch is a fault. I suspect the latter ……… does it free spool OK ? it maybe that the motor or g/box has partially seized.

The winch running under no load should only show pressures of maybe 100psi max (maybe a little more with a counter balance valve on winch out)

Looking at the specs (IIRC the 525 is an early H14) then the max system pressure for 14000lbs pull should be 1800psi (155bar)………so 2000psi seems about right for the PRV.

I think is is maybe time to investigate the winch ……. Pull off the motor and see if it turns freely……….. also a peek in the g/box may reveal corrosion if it has drunk some H2O in the past.

HTH

Ian

Yes it was 2500psi, but the gauge was on a deadend pipe so I take it would have reached max pressure? It will free spool fine, it also powers out/in find under a light load IE on the flat it will putt the 110 untill you put your foot on the brakes, then it will pull for about 8-12 inches before it stiops pulling. The gearbox was off about 18 months ago, before I had it. But I was told the transfer box was not changed. I could be in for a lot of work.

I just wish someone (as in a specialist) was clost to me to take a look. As I have said speed dose not matter to me as long as it works. But it is looking more likley that it will be coming off and fitting an electric one .

Paul

[Bull Bar Cowboy]

Ah ……. Ok.

Sorry, I misinterpreted your first post…………I was under the impression that the fitter was seeing 2500psi with the pressure gauge in line to the motor. So the fitter was getting 2500psi to a blanked pipe …….

This indicates that the spool valve is most likely OK …….although pressure without much flow could be the cause of the problem ……………

You need to ascertain whether you have enough oil flow at the motor. The usual way is the disconnect the flow pipe and run it into a bucket whilst somebody operates the spool (not for too long though, because you will empty the tank)

I’m still thinking maybe it’s the winch motor ………. but leaking seals in the spool would also give this problem……………but as the spool will trip the PRV then I suspect its OK……………..

Ian

[pugwash]

Paul, once you have ascertained what the issue is you are likely going to be able to fix it pretty cheaply and quickly.

My local hose place charges £25/hour for making up hoses, so even if you had to have half of your hoses changed then it's still going to cost less than the price of an electric winch.

Similarily- if the winch drum moves, then you might have a buggered motor- these cost under £100 IIRC from PG or similar (although they might be more for a 525)- if you need to change the motor on the winch then it's all of a 10 minute job. Unbolt the pipes going to the motor. Unbolt the motor. Bolt on new motor. screw on old pipes. Job Done.

I really think you have the basis for a good powerful, reliable, fast-ish winch here. Replacing it with an eleccy one would be more hassle than it's worth in my opinion.

OK so logically a couple of things that we seemed to have deduced so far:

The PTO pump is working fine.

Your tank is OK

You DRUM on your winch is fine- as it's rotating easily under freespool

Your sppol Block is working ok- as it is at least controlling the winch

Your PRV is set right- you can get up to 2500PSI and then it sends any overpressue back to tank.

It is not:

Your transfer box (as the unit is pumping)

The Pump

The pipework between the tank and spool block as you seem to have flow.

I think that's what we have worked out so far.

That leaves (as far as i can see) pipe work from spool block to motor, the motor itself, or the winch gearbox.

I woudl presume that it is not the pipework as fluid does flow when not under pressure- although replacing it wouldn't be a bad idea. A pro should do it in next to no time.

The leaves the winch itself- you could take it off and strip it apart- or send it to PG winches to get re-conned. Or just buy a new milemarked for about £400.

Ian, Nige, anyone else, please correct me if you think i have gone wrong somewhere here.

[Paul Humphreys]

Ah ……. Ok.

Sorry, I misinterpreted your first post…………I was under the impression that the fitter was seeing 2500psi with the pressure gauge in line to the motor. So the fitter was getting 2500psi to a blanked pipe …….

This indicates that the spool valve is most likely OK …….although pressure without much flow could be the cause of the problem ……………

You need to ascertain whether you have enough oil flow at the motor. The usual way is the disconnect the flow pipe and run it into a bucket whilst somebody operates the spool (not for too long though, because you will empty the tank)

I’m still thinking maybe it’s the winch motor ………. but leaking seals in the spool would also give this problem……………but as the spool will trip the PRV then I suspect its OK……………..

Ian

No leaks, well its not loseing oil.

Paul

[Hybrid_From_Hell]

Ok

Have done some pics

1st is of an H14W spool block, this should be very similar to yours, this particular one has been modified so the pipes come out of the top of the unit, yours should come out of the bottom, this is done by rotating the control valves themselves. This is a double unit, have you a double or single block ?. If double have you ensured the second valve (on / off rather than the winch which is on / off / on ) IS OFF ?

As such like this (PRV)

Then a close up of the unit itself.

As you can see there is a cover over the front (the first nut) undo this then you'll see a bolt or allen keyed head that can beadjusted, you have to unlock the 2nd nut in - lock nut, and adjust - from memory in increases pressure and out decreases, I would suggest you count how many turns to undo, then wind in fully and count again, for 2000 - 2500 it will be nearly fully in ?

As to the 2500 psi on a pipe blanked off, apart from being rather dangerous, WHICH pipe did you blank off and attach guage to ?

Lastly the plumbing :

Big Pipe, from Tank into PTO Pump

Smaller pipe from PTO pump (press out) to spool block, from spool block (often opp side to the PTO in) is return to tank. Then you should have 2x more pipes from spool block - 1 to winch and 1 return.

You may have a single even smaller pipe running up to a controller connected to the throttle but you can forget this.

Have you also check the oil level, and ensured you have the correct grade of oil in (EP32 Hyd oil)

Have a lookie at the avove and then post back

Nige

[Paul Humphreys]

Paul, once you have ascertained what the issue is you are likely going to be able to fix it pretty cheaply and quickly.

My local hose place charges £25/hour for making up hoses, so even if you had to have half of your hoses changed then it's still going to cost less than the price of an electric winch.

Similarily- if the winch drum moves, then you might have a buggered motor- these cost under £100 IIRC from PG or similar (although they might be more for a 525)- if you need to change the motor on the winch then it's all of a 10 minute job. Unbolt the pipes going to the motor. Unbolt the motor. Bolt on new motor. screw on old pipes. Job Done.

I really think you have the basis for a good powerful, reliable, fast-ish winch here. Replacing it with an eleccy one would be more hassle than it's worth in my opinion.

OK so logically a couple of things that we seemed to have deduced so far:

The PTO pump is working fine.

Your tank is OK

You DRUM on your winch is fine- as it's rotating easily under freespool

Your sppol Block is working ok- as it is at least controlling the winch

Your PRV is set right- you can get up to 2500PSI and then it sends any overpressue back to tank.

It is not:

Your transfer box (as the unit is pumping)

The Pump

The pipework between the tank and spool block as you seem to have flow.

I think that's what we have worked out so far.

That leaves (as far as i can see) pipe work from spool block to motor, the motor itself, or the winch gearbox.

I woudl presume that it is not the pipework as fluid does flow when not under pressure- although replacing it wouldn't be a bad idea. A pro should do it in next to no time.

The leaves the winch itself- you could take it off and strip it apart- or send it to PG winches to get re-conned. Or just buy a new milemarked for about £400.

Ian, Nige, anyone else, please correct me if you think i have gone wrong somewhere here.

I think you right, but its just getting it working. I need to find a specialist who is willing to look at it. The last one was the only who would look. But just said it needs using, but tried that. I dont mind replacing the motor if thats the problem. Well I will be on the phone later to see if I can find someone who is willing to look at it again.

Thanks everyone for your help.

Paul