Fandeland Posted February 8, 2021 Share Posted February 8, 2021 Hi everyone, after many refurb hours spent on a 4,6L from a P38, yesterday I, excitedly, dropped the engine in my RRC. Only to find out that that the idle pulley under the PAS pump is fouling the steering box... because it is a LHD 😟 most of you probably don’t have the issue as I’m guessing there is plenty of room on the left hand side of the engine (looking front to back) for a RHD steering box... I’d like to retain the A/C (and the PAS!)... if I retain the serpentine set up, is there a way to get rid off the idle pulley? or is there another setup possible so that nothing fouls the steering box? if I don’t retain the serpentine and go back to V belt alternator, PAS and A/C, can I keep the 4,6L front cover with its water pump and crankshaft driven oil pump? i don’t need the dizzy as I’m shifting to megasquirt with EDIS. Thanks for your suggestions! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted February 8, 2021 Share Posted February 8, 2021 Can you get a smaller idler pulley in there instead? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elbekko Posted February 8, 2021 Share Posted February 8, 2021 Hmm, I don't recall that being a problem on a friend's 4.6 RRC, but that's with a Thor ancillary system, not the GEMS like you have. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted February 8, 2021 Share Posted February 8, 2021 1 hour ago, Bowie69 said: Can you get a smaller idler pulley in there instead? ^ this, or possibly graft a sprung tensioner onto the nub to move the pulley up & in a bit? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted February 8, 2021 Share Posted February 8, 2021 Also, you seem to have it sitting quite low? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fandeland Posted February 8, 2021 Author Share Posted February 8, 2021 thanks everyone! In desperation , I left it alone yesterday and wanted to sleep over it. I’ll measure how much I need but I’m guessing that if I keep a pulley or other tensioner there, it will need to be about 3cm further up to the left... smaller pulley or tensioner will definitely be investigated. ref height, it sits on brand new Silentblocs and the original engine to chassis brackets... that should be fine. How about keeping the 4,6L front end and use Vbelt alternator, A/C and PAS? Any challenges to be anticipated? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Escape Posted February 9, 2021 Share Posted February 9, 2021 17 hours ago, elbekko said: Hmm, I don't recall that being a problem on a friend's 4.6 RRC, but that's with a Thor ancillary system, not the GEMS like you have. He doesn't use the A/C, so doesn't need the extra pulley. That will give more clearance. 9 hours ago, Fandeland said: How about keeping the 4,6L front end and use Vbelt alternator, A/C and PAS? Any challenges to be anticipated? The water pump on the serpentine engine rotates the other way as on the V-belt, so not that easy a swap. You'd obviously need a different front pulley set (not sure if those are interchangeable) and way to tension each V-belt, so sounds far from straigyt forward. I would try to use a smaller idler or relocate it. Only downside would be a non-standard belt length. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fandeland Posted February 9, 2021 Author Share Posted February 9, 2021 I didn’t think about direction of rotation! Grrrr.... If I keep an idle pulley, than it needs to be 4cm in diameter maximum... and a shorter belt. Probably doable. Else I’ll fabricate a small bracket to move the idle pulley further to the upper left... and hopefully maintain the original belt.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elbekko Posted February 9, 2021 Share Posted February 9, 2021 It looks like the pulley isn't your only problem? The whole bracket looks awfully close to the steering box. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blanco Posted February 9, 2021 Share Posted February 9, 2021 I know some of the Series upgrades use a 'handed' steering box on the outside of the chassis, I don't know what challenges that would present here but it might be worth a look?? ❔ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fandeland Posted February 9, 2021 Author Share Posted February 9, 2021 7 hours ago, elbekko said: It looks like the pulley isn't your only problem? The whole bracket looks awfully close to the steering box. Should be fine, the bracket is further at the back. I might need a slightly different piping routing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carloz Posted February 12, 2021 Share Posted February 12, 2021 On 2/9/2021 at 5:34 PM, Blanco said: I know some of the Series upgrades use a 'handed' steering box on the outside of the chassis, I don't know what challenges that would present here but it might be worth a look?? ❔ Fitting an RHD steeringbox on the outside of the chassis is a possibility (but doesn't fit straight away). Or fitting the idler closer to the waterpump pulley with an adaterplate maybe in combination with a bit smaller idler wheel. But I don't like much those small idler wheels like 40mm-ish... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fandeland Posted October 18, 2022 Author Share Posted October 18, 2022 Time goes and some progress has been made… i finally fitted a small idler pulley that clears the PAS box. Works just fine. The PAS hydraulic high pressure pipe is made of a mix of the P38 (pump side) and RRC (PAS box side) original pipes, brazed together. the engine is megasquirted and fired up thanks to the great inputs I could find on the forum. I still have a challenge getting the IAC stepper motor setup correctly. It doesn’t close enough and idle speed is then too high. But that’s another story. I’m now focusing on the torque converter… and I’m scratching my head about options… is there a way to fit a bigger converter than the original 3,5L one? I have a 4,6L GEMS large converter but that way too big to fit the 3,5l bellhousing and the gearbox input shaft is too short… The P38 bellhousings looks to be some 5cm longer but I don’t have one to compare. The RRC is 20cm. Anyone would know? Or better would know what option I have to fit a bigger converter (if ever that’s needed). the RRC is going to be used occasionally and run of 235 tyres, no hardcore off-roading. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted October 18, 2022 Share Posted October 18, 2022 The later 4.6 had a smaller converter, the same as 3.9, 4.0 engines, that will fit your HP22, more info here: https://ashcroft-transmissions.co.uk/product/zf4hp22/ The early 4.6s had a larger converter which requires the HP24 bellhousing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Escape Posted October 19, 2022 Share Posted October 19, 2022 Good to hear you've found a solution for the idler and have the engine running! As @Bowie69 said, the intermediate torque converter as on the 4.0 and later 4.6 should do just fine. My P38 was used like that for years after the PO had fitted a 4.6 instead of a 4.0. Same setup on our friends 4.6 RRC, he's still using the original autobox from the 3.5 (rebuilt earlier this year) with the biggest torque convertor he could find and fit, which turned out to be the intermediate one. You do have to pay attention to the spacing, best measure it up before bolting together: how deep the torque converter sits from the edge of the bellhousing (after properly engaging all the splines!) and how far the flexplate protrudes from the engine block. I recall you want about 5mm clearance, certainly not a thight fit as that will put load on the oilpump and can/will lead to early failure. There are different size spacers available that go between flywheel and flexplate to mix and match to get the right clearance. You're welcome to pop over for a chat and see what I have on the shelves. We're near Leuven, so pretty central. 😉 Filip Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fandeland Posted October 20, 2022 Author Share Posted October 20, 2022 I was indeed looking at the intermediate size converter from a P38 but as the bellhousing was looking longer than on a RRC I had doubt it would fit. Filip, I’ll come by, thanks for the offer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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