Defender rear stub axle (disc brake)

[Mossberg]

Defenders with rear disc brakes  - stub axles - two types - one has a slot for the lock washer with a small tab, and the other type have a flat that correspond with a lock washer with the hole to suit. The type with the flat is the later type.

So, are the stub axles the same appart from from the way they interact with the lock washer, and do both types use the same hub set-up?

I am having to change my axle casing and have a set of hubs and stub axles that have the flat. My current stub axles have the slot as it's a 10 spline!

So, are they the same, as that will mean I can build a lot of the replacement axle before stripping the old one? I am replacing the calipers, disc's and bearings so the only things I will need from the old axle are the one piece drive shafts and diff.

Thanks for your help. 

Mick

[western]

10 spline axle should have rear stubs that use the D shaped hole lock washer, mine does being a ex drum braked axle which I converted to disc, using the original stubs (wider spaced hub bearings) 10 spline front hubs, solid disc same as 110 fronts, calipers & a 10mm thick spacer. 

Later hubs 300tdi rear disc axles & some very late 200tdi have closer spaced hub bearings & 24 spline shafts. 

[uninformed]

Actually both 90 and 110 parts catalogs have 3 different stub/hub set ups for rears. The original early type is the standard wide bearing stub and hub, keyway for washer. The second version has slightly less bearing separation (about ~8mm) and also had an outer oil seal and spacer along and has the machined flat for washer. The later narrow bearing stub and hub has the flat (3rd set up)

 

The visual difference between the 2nd & 3rd type stubs - the 2nd type (outer oil seal) has the flat continue past the threads for a smooth section of slightly larger Dia than thread OD before stepping up to bearing surface Dia. The 3rd type has the thread and flat stop at the transition to the bearing surface Dia.

None of these are interchangeable with hubs/stubs, that is they have to run their matching partner. You can however run a early wide bearing front hub on a early wide bearing Stub.

I have never seen the type with outer oil seal etc in person, though I did have a RRC hub that was definitely from that same type set up.

ON RRCs the change over to the second type (outer oil seal) happened mid 1985.

 

edited

Edited March 20, 2022 by uninformed

[western]

Pretty sure I've never seen a 110 with a outer hub seal either, never had a 90 so can't comment on what they had fitted. My 1989 110 doesn't have outer seals in the hub under the drive member. 

Don't rely on the parts cat diagrams, they only show a generic parts diagram, my 110 book shows the slotted keyway stub for drum & disc rear brakes, but the part mbers say different. 

[Mossberg]

The front has different hubs and the thicker drive flanges. I have just refurbished them so I am OK with them.

I will take one of the drive shafts out tomorrow and look at the lock washer/stub axle end but without taking the hub off. I don't want to have to replace seals yet as I will be doing the axle in a week or so. 

Another question  - do I have to replace hub seals every time I take the hub off?

[western]

If the rear axle has later thin drive members then it's a later type 300tdi with 24 spline shafts, so sounds like it's been swapped by a previous owner for a disc braked lste axle, the drive members if the axle is original should all be the same, mine are the thick type. 

[Mossberg]

6 minutes ago, uninformed said:

Actually both 90 and 110 parts catalogs have 3 different stub/hub set ups for rears. The original early type is the standard wide bearing stub and hub, keyway for washer. The second version has slightly less bearing separation (about ~8mm) and also had an outer oil seal and spacer along with the keyway for washer. The later narrow bearing stub and hub has the flat (3rd set up)

None of these are interchangeable with hubs/stubs, that is they have to run their matching partner.

Ah, OK. So because I have been given a set of stub axles with hubs, could I use these with the one piece 10 spline drive shafts I have?

I suppose if the dimension from the face of the stub axle that bolts to the axle case, to the face on the hub that fastens to the drive flange is the same on each set is the same, then I should be OK with the one piece drive shafts?

I will attempt to measure up tomorrow but unfortunately I have stripped the bearings from the hubs I was given so will have to put them back together. 

[Mossberg]

11 minutes ago, western said:

If the rear axle has later thin drive members then it's a later type 300tdi with 24 spline shafts, so sounds like it's been swapped by a previous owner for a disc braked lste axle, the drive members if the axle is original should all be the same, mine are the thick type. 

Unfortunately it's a bitsa so I am finding things out as I go along. I know they are 10 spline shafts as I have had one out before, but I can't remember what the stub axle was like. I will try to assess it tomorrow and take some photos and measurements.

[uninformed]

58 minutes ago, western said:

Pretty sure I've never seen a 110 with a outer hub seal either, never had a 90 so can't comment on what they had fitted. My 1989 110 doesn't have outer seals in the hub under the drive member. 

Don't rely on the parts cat diagrams, they only show a generic parts diagram, my 110 book shows the slotted keyway stub for drum & disc rear brakes, but the part mbers say different. 

Not relying on the drawings themselves but cross referencing the part numbers and the drawings clearly show the oil seal and spacer. They also give date ranges. That is for both 90&110 PCs

 

But I suspect it didn’t happen on Salisbury axle assemblies 

The Rover type (90) on the other hand could have??? 🤷🏻‍♂️
 

 

[uninformed]

@Mossberg

You do not have to change the hub seal every time. The caveat is don’t damage it on removal, check the seal surface on stub axle for evidence it may have damaged the seal and check the seal itself.

Let’s clear a few things up -

your vehicle is a 90?

It has a Rover type rear diff?

it is drum braked rear?

the stubs/hubs you’ve been given are they drum or disc hubs?

[uninformed]

I just edited my first reply

2nd & 3rd type stubs both have flats 

[Mossberg]

6 hours ago, uninformed said:

@Mossberg

You do not have to change the hub seal every time. The caveat is don’t damage it on removal, check the seal surface on stub axle for evidence it may have damaged the seal and check the seal itself.

Let’s clear a few things up -

your vehicle is a 90?

It has a Rover type rear diff?

it is drum braked rear?

the stubs/hubs you’ve been given are they drum or disc hubs?

Thanks for clearing up about the oil seals. I had heared on one of the videos to replace the seal every time you take the hub off! However I have just remembered that to take the hub off I will have to take the caliper off which I am trying to avoid as I don't want to damage the brake pipe. When I do the swap I will do the pipes anyway,  but I don't want to start chasing the pipes to the master cylinder before the swap.

The truck I have is a Defender 90. From a chassis number check it says year of manufacture 1992 and registration Feb 93. It has had a 300tdi fitted and I believed from the previous owner that the axles were from a 200tdi (which I presumed was a Disco 200tdi). They are disc brakes and I will be replacing the calipers and discs when I swap the axle casing.

I will take a photo of the stub axle and hub this morning (the set I got with the replacement axle casing).

I will also take the wheel off the truck so I can show you the end of existing arrangement. 

I really appreciate your time and replies guys. It would be nice to have a truck that was all in good order - but I couldn't afford one of those!! However,  with the help of you guys, I am enjoying doing the repairs/maintenance  (though you wouldn't think that when you hear the swearing and deap sighs as something brakes or I find the next buggered up bit I need to work on).

Edited March 20, 2022 by Mossberg

[Sigi_H]

There is no need to change the hub seal every time, but since this part can absolutely be responsible for dead bearings ... change it, if you have a seal at home anyway.

[uninformed]

Just to throw another spanner in the works. I’ve only seen Defender late stub axles with the flat. But I have seen Disco stub axles (narrow bearing spacing same as late Def’r) with the slot.

 

So since yours is a bitsa you can’t just go off 90/110/Defender information. You need to make sure of what you’ve got. 
 

im uncertain, but the 90 rear housing may have a flange like a Salisbury and the stub axle locates externally around its Dia. The RRC and Disco housings have a larger flange and the stub axle has a spigot that locates internally. This may only be drum brake 90s?  This needs to be confirmed ?

[Snagger]

I used a late pre-Defender Salisbury axle and converted it to discs with an early 200Tdi Discovery rear axle.  Both had the D-section stub axle ends and locking washers.  The Discovery axle also had an outboard hub oil seal that sits inside the hub, retained by the big wheel bearing nuts.  The Discovery half shafts were 10 spline at the diff end but had the domed integrated drive flange, as was also common to Range Rover Classics up to the 300Tdi.  The dimensions of the hubs vary - I used 90/110 front hubs for the disc conversion, and these were slightly narrower on the bearing spacing than the original Salisbury hub; the bevelled part of the stub axle protruded through the wheel bearings so the first nut wouldn’t tighten down properly.  I had to use the Discovery seals, remove the lip and bevel one edge of the hole to clear the stub taper to shim the bearings.  Obviously, 300Tdi and later hubs are much narrower.

The dimensional differences on the earlier hubs are small, so you can transfer half shafts.  The 300Tdi+ shafts are a fair bit shorter, though, so you can’t mix those with the older hubs and vice versa.  Of course, you also have to make sure the splines are compatible with the diff.  So, you can use 200Tdi and earlier shafts from a 90, RRC or Discovery on any contemporary (unmodified) Rover axle, regardless of whether it has the domed integrated Rr/Disco shaft and flange or the two-piece shaft and star shaped flange of the 90.  You can’t fit a 110 shaft (two piece) as all Salisburys have 24 splines and you can’t fit a later shaft (two piece with thin flange or the flat integrated type from late 90s) as they will be too short and will be 24 spline.

[uninformed]

@Snagger that’s unlucky regarding the front hub not working normally on the rear stub as that’s the first time I’ve heard that happening. The Perentie (Australian military 110) guys that convert to rear discs often do the early front hub to rear stub. 

[Mossberg]

I took the wheel off the rear to have a look at the hubs. I also took the drive shaft out to have a look at the stub axle. The stub axle had the flat rather than the groove. 

This is the drive shaft. It measures 910mm from the flange face that fits to hub, to the end of the shaft.

 

looking at the hub. Note the recess around the full circumference of the hub.

 

The diff end of the drive shaft

 

This is the hub from the axle that I am taking the axle case from.  Note the recess seems to only be in three areas.

 

And the stub axle from that.

 

I may have to wait until I strip the existing axle before I know fully what I have before I can say that the parts are interchangeable or not. I hope I can find the part number on the hub as I need to understand if the full recess hub has been replaced by the one with three part recesses. 

[uninformed]

I would definitely wait until you strip it down.

Going by your pics that stub axle and hub from your new to you casing looks like late narrow bearing type. Witness marks , flat/thread  all the way to bearing Surface Dia and cut out for ABS sensor are my indicators.

[Snagger]

6 hours ago, uninformed said:

@Snagger that’s unlucky regarding the front hub not working normally on the rear stub as that’s the first time I’ve heard that happening. The Perentie (Australian military 110) guys that convert to rear discs often do the early front hub to rear stub. 

It worked - it just needed a thick shim.

[Mossberg]

I measured up what came of my existing and replacement axle,  and although the hubs look slightly different, they are the same dimensionally as each other.