Series3 lift

[Series3Spudd]

Hi everyone I put 265/75/r16`s on my 1971 s3 88” today and I would like to give it more of a lift already have parabolics so the tyres do work but a bit more room would be nice can I put extended shackles on as well or i have herd of putting the spring over the axel what is involved with this would I need to modafiy the drive shaft input angle? Big modifications not a problem I am (planning)(😂we all know what that means) a rebuild because it needs a new chassis and gearbox rebuilt anyway. thanks ps it has a 2.5na engine and will only do 50mph with over drive on 7.50s so am hoping bigger wheels would help 

 

Edited January 15, 2023 by Series3Spudd

[Chicken Drumstick]

Really depends what you are wanting to try and achieve overall. Extended spring hangers/shackles will go straight on and will give a lift, but they also change the diff angle as you can only add them to one end of the spring. Mil 109s running these would have had slightly different mounts at the other end of the spring to compensate. But lots and lots of people run extended shackles on otherwise stock Series.

Spring over axle conversion is doable. But is quite a large modification and you'll have to solve some things with the steering arms. No reason not to do it if it is what you want, but would be more at the 'extreme' end of modding and would yield 4-6" of lift. You'd might need to consider other supporting mods.

Another option would be different springs designed to give a lift. Not all parabolic or leaf springs are equal. But you might want to ride, handling and suspension travel too. The latter more so if you off road.

 

Personally I'd say your tyres are a bit too fat for a Series and I'd guess are sticking out of the wheel arches. Which in the UK is illegal for road use (not MoT, but Construction & Use regulations). You'll need to add some Defender style extended spats to keep the wheels covered to remain legal for road use.

 

On my Series I heavily modded the suspension and used to run up to an 8.25 x 16 tyre (size up from a 7.50 x 16). Which are about an inch or two taller than the 265's you have, but narrower.

Link to my build thread if you are interested in the suspension mods: 

 

Personally I'd probably only SOA if wanting to run 35's or building for a specific off road need.

[FridgeFreezer]

You can fit extended shackles, although you shouldn't really need much if any extra lift for those tyres. Every time you lift the car you make something else worse in return - driveshaft angles, side-slope stability, etc.

Spring over axle is major work, brings some big potential problems (spring wrap) and is totally unnecessary unless you have huge tyres (which LR axles will not cope with anyway).

If your truck will only do 50mph there's something wrong with the engine, not the tyres, a 2.5NA (petrol, diesel?) should be capable of getting you to 70mph and fitting bigger tyres will only give the engine a harder time due to the gearing change.

[Gazzar]

Honestly? Buy a disco 1. You can do all you want much easier and cheaper.

[Series3Spudd]

Ok over axel springs is a bit much would still like to run original one 109 riveted rims in the summer and I think the biggest you can get on those is 750s it’s a 2.5na Diesel from an early defender when I bought it the guy just swapped it from a Perkins and thought it was a 2.25 as only after a closer look that I realised it was a 2.5an The rest of the drivetrain is original not planning  on doing any heavy off Roading only for a bit of fieldwork (work on a farm)in the winter   Only want 265 because have a set leftover from our old defender but they need new tires soon anyway so can always change for a smaller tire if there as good off-road found that 750s are to narrow and just sink. For some reason the 750s rub long before full lock but the 265s don’t rub at all?? 750 is on 5.5 inch 109 rims 265 is on modulus

ps thay don’t stick out to much 

Edited January 16, 2023 by Series3Spudd

[Snagger]

SOA is a major modification which has steering connection complications and will also cause you problems on the rear prop shaft, as well as insurance premium issues (many insurers will refuse cover, while most others will raise the premium significantly).

1-ton shackles are one method, but you need to keep the axle orientation the same to retain prop shaft UJ geometry and steering castor angle.  You can use wedges between spring and axle saddles, which will lose a little of the gained lift, or you could fit extended hangars for the front of each spring like 1-ton and WD 109s.  This was done on Australian Army 88s, so could be argued to be one form of original spec for the new chassis.

I would recommend against tyres wider than 235 for performance on road, off road and steering.  Even 235 will make the steering far heavier than standard.  Performance on road suffers with wider tyres increasing rolling resistance substantially, and off road they float over mud instead of cutting through to good grip under the surface.  The sinking that you complain of in the 7.50s is exactly what off road tyres are meant to do except for bog or Arctic (read Icelandic) vehicles.  750s would be the ideal size for your 88, which is why LR used them on CamelTrophy 110s and why so many military and emergency services units continue to use them now.  They will give you the best performance, lightest steering, best steering lock and won’t need wheel arch modifications.

Those wide tyres and the roof rack will sap the engine.  Removing the rack will gain you another 10mph, and sensible 7.50s another 5-10.  That said, the 12J is not very powerful and suffers on hills and headwinds.  It is very reliable and robust, but is a plodder.  

[FridgeFreezer]

Rubbing is also related to the offset of the rims on the hub, aftermarket 8-spokes may stick out further.

You can get OE wheels banded to allow wider tyres but on a stock Series there's a limit to what you can reliably/easily run and you're fairly close to it - steering and braking will get harder as you add more tyre.

2.5NAD should still be capable of 70mph even if it takes a while to get there and be noisy as all hell. Has it ever been serviced?

As @Gazzar says, if you want a lot more out of this you'd be better off selling it as a fairly standard original Series and just buying the nearest ratty Discovery or P38, it will be better at everything and cheaper.

[Chicken Drumstick]

3 hours ago, Series3Spudd said:

Ok over axel springs is a bit much would still like to run original one 109 riveted rims in the summer and I think the biggest you can get on those is 750s it’s a 2.5na Diesel from an early defender when I bought it the guy just swapped it from a Perkins and thought it was a 2.25 as only after a closer look that I realised it was a 2.5an The rest of the drivetrain is original not planning  on doing any heavy off Roading only for a bit of fieldwork (work on a farm)in the winter   Only want 265 because have a set leftover from our old defender but they need new tires soon anyway so can always change for a smaller tire if there as good off-road found that 750s are to narrow and just sink. For some reason the 750s rub long before full lock but the 265s don’t rub at all?? 750 is on 5.5 inch 109 rims 265 is on modulus

ps thay don’t stick out to much 

Glad they don't stick out.

Rubbing will be down to the rim offset most likely.

TBH - lift shackles are pretty cheap to buy and fit. Just give them a go and see how you get on. If they don't work out, take em off back to where you are now.

[Series3Spudd]

5 hours ago, Gazzar said:

Honestly? Buy a disco 1. You can do all you want much easier and cheaper.

The problem with discovery’s is leg room I’m 6.2

[Series3Spudd]

Thank you all for your help 

Had 235 Insta turbo at’s (so worn no longer legal) on it when i got it and tbh will the parabolics it looked a bit stupid the wheels looked too small So I got the 750s so that it fit over our pit but it only made it narrower ( rear diff was Blown hence wanting to put it over the pit)😂 I would prefer 750s because I have 4 good 5.5 rims I would like to use but thay rub like hell on lock I have looked for spacers but I cannot find series all defender so as I had 265s in the shed just wanted to try it.

@FridgeFreezerit hads no sound deadening at all so you don’t notice the noise at 50 because you are already deaf by 30

@Snaggerwe have heavy Clay around here so every thing just slips on top 

[Gazzar]

3 hours ago, Series3Spudd said:

The problem with discovery’s is leg room I’m 6.2

A SWB series CAN'T have more leg room than a disco!!

[Series3Spudd]

28 minutes ago, Gazzar said:

A SWB series CAN'T have more leg room than a disco!!

A little bit but a lot less plastic so more room for your knees 

[Snagger]

Clay should demand narrow tyres.  Look at the photos of vehicles in WWI in the Somme and Flanders - they all had narrow tyres to deal with the mud and clay.

235/85 would be similar diameter to 7.50.  235/75 or 235/70 would look quite small in the arches, like the 6.00 original spec on most 88s.

https://www.lrparts.net/da5004-steel-30mm-wheel-spacers-with-nuts-by-britpart-for-defender-discovery-1-and-range-rover-classic.html

https://simonbbc.com/bulldog-wheel-spacers-for-land-rover-defender-discovery-1-rrc-non-hub-centric-30mm-single-unit/

https://www.sahara4x4.com/b2c/producto/RA01451ST/2/kit-of-4-steel-wheel-spacers-for-land-rover

Many more came up with that search.  Need to specify steel wheel spacers.

As for Discovery leg room, it’s more than an 88 or 109, but you can increase it further by mounting the seat rails on extenders in a similar fashion to the seat rail extenders sold for Defender seats.  Just a couple of lengths of 1” x 1/4” flat steel bar with countersunk bolts to hold them to the original mountings and a set of holes couple of inches further aft for bolting the seat rails would do.

[Series3Spudd]

Oh I never knew that i will try a set of mud 7.50s on my 5.5 rims and try spacers thank you I was told at the lro show last year that Defender spacers don’t fit series. Was considering Insta turbo Saharas on cross plus atm ps thay were 235/70

Edited January 17, 2023 by Series3Spudd

[FridgeFreezer]

If your steering stops are adjusted right 7.50's shouldn't rub as they were standard fitment for a hell of a lot of vehicles. 235/85's usually rub a little but if it rubs just turn the wheel a bit less

[Daan]

You could fit those tyres on your modular rims and you still have the wider track with narrower tyres. Land rover wheels look much better though!

[Snagger]

I had those spacers on my 109.  They fit fine.  Do use thread lock - the nuts seem to have a habit of loosening while hidden by the wheel.

You shouldn’t need them to prevent rubbing unless at greater than standard steering lock.  Someone may have overadjusted the stop locks with non-standard wheels fitted that move the tyre outboard in a similar way to spacers.  You can fit the 7.50s to typical aftermarket wheels to achieve this without this potential problem of spacers (or the small extra hassle they create in removing brake drums).  Spacers and offset wheels will both have the same effects on steering - they increase pull from uneven braking, bumps or grip and increase the heaviness of the steering considerably.  I’d recommend using the 5.5” 109 rims without spacers and stop locks to prevent the rubbing unless you really need that extra lock.

Make sure you get tyres on the right way around.  You have three different types in that photo, but the type that you have three of are directional.  Fit them the right way and the tread will be self cleaning (to a point), forcing the mud out the sides.  Fit them backwards and they will scoop the mud into the tread.  You’ll see what I mean if you try to imagine the pattern churning through mud.  That is why typical tractor tyres have their “V” pointing backwards on the bottom and forwards at the top.

[Series3Spudd]

Huh 🤔 worked on a farm for 2 years now and never knew that’s why tractor tires are direction😂

Definitely be 5.5 109 rims I’ve only got three modulars the fourth is brand new it’s the spare wheel off of our  defender 90

 checking the steering stops is a good idea she’s had 18 owners so a lot has been changed on it and how important is the steering dampener because it’s missing first time I changed the wheels I thought the mount on the chassis was a weirdly placed bump stop😂

I change the oil and filter on the engine today and will do gearbox this week if I get time I have read that most people use the same oil as the diffs do you think that this sae 80w 90 will work it’s what I have in both axles 

thanks 

[FridgeFreezer]

15 hours ago, Series3Spudd said:

how important is the steering dampener because it’s missing

They were optional fitment, most trucks didn't have them as I understand it but they all have the bracket welded to the chassis.

[Series3Spudd]

4 hours ago, FridgeFreezer said:

They were optional fitment, most trucks didn't have them as I understand it but they all have the bracket welded to the chassis.

Oh good thank you drives fine without it so didn’t think it was to inpatient 😂

[FridgeFreezer]

 

[Snagger]

Yep, steering damper is optional, and less common on 88s.  The bigger the tyres, the more you may need it for dealing with imbalance - mud unevenly stuck in the tyres or wheels at speed would be dealt with by the damper to some degree.  As long as the swivel pins are in good order and their preload correct, then “death wobble” is unlikely.  A lot of people think that is what the damper is for, but it’s really to protect the driver from sudden steering wheel movement caused by the tyres hitting objects like stumps and rocks.