Challenger4x4 Tuff Trophy Challenge 2007

[KBE]

Challenger 4x4 The Club would like to announce its 2007 Tuff Trophy Challenge. In association with Outback Import Products.

The event will be in the form of punch challenge event and will be open to all, but membership of “Challenger 4x4 The Club” is mandatory for insurance purposes (nominal £10 fee for “competition only” members if not already a member) and any vehicle make. Each team will consist of a Driver, Co-driver and vehicle.

We have secured a large prize fund for this event. Consisting of: ARB air Locker, set of Staun Beadlock’s, Extreme hi-lift jacks and Staun tyre deflators, plus many more! Together worth over £1500!

The weekend’s event will cost £125 per Team, that’s only £62.50 for each day’s competing and with such good prizes on offer; we hope you’ll agree this is good value.

We will also host a BBQ and bonfire on the Saturday night to help you replace all the energy you lost during the day and provide Tea and Coffee stations around the event arena during the day.

The Tuff Trophy Challenge 2007 will take place over the weekend of the 7th/8th April 2007 at Tuff Terrains, off-road centre on a 193 acre site in Mid-Wales.

This site includes all the features you’d expect from a Challenge event site, plus many more surprises; it has water, mud runs and ruts, bogs, steep climbs, wooded and open areas, waterfalls and river-bed runs.  Camping facilities and a workshop area are also available.

The Tuff Trophy Challenge will operate a handicap scheme instead of a more traditional class system. As usual, points will be awarded for “collecting” punches distributed around the event arena, but each punch will have a MAXIMUM score allocated to it. The teams will have a handicap rating for each event based on vehicle specification (for example, number of winches, differential locks, tyre size etc.) and a team’s handicap rating will determine the actual score attained for each punch gained. We hope this approach will allow the “clubman” teams to compete with seasoned challenge teams.

In addition to collecting the punch’s there will be four “special” stages over the weekend. Some will entail driving; others will be a mental challenge.

A set of competition regulations will be sent to you on completion of the entry form, but as we are operating under MSA guidelines most of you (certainly those who have competed with the AWDC) will be familiar with them.

A large camping field is free and available from Friday night and we can also recommend local B+B’s to stay in if you prefer. (book through us for discounted rates!)

Entry fee can be paid by cheque to challenger4x4 the club, or you could ring Challenger4x4 and pay by credit card if you prefer.

Grid refs and directions will be forwarded to you on receipt of entry form.

Entry and membership forms:

Challenger_4x4_The_Club_entry_form.pdf

Challenger_4x4_The_Club_comp.pdf

Please complete and return to:

Challenger 4x4, Oxenden Road, Tongham, Surrey GU10 1AJ

I will be away for the weekend, so wont be able to answer any questions you may have until Tuesday, but feel free to phone Paul Bass at Challenger4x4 if you want to know more about the site etc. 01252 325930

 

Thanks for your time and look forward to seeing you there.

Kev.

[JST]

Kev,

looks good.

Just thinking about your scoring system does that mean that each modification/aid will incur a greater penalty to the vehicle therefore reducing punch socre? But said punch is worth the same no of points to all vehicles with same no of modifications/aids? and therefore all punches are the same value to all vehicles with the said same no of modifcations/aids.

eg

2 x lockers, 2x winches on two vehicles a punch is worth the same to each vehicle, or infact all the punches are worth the same to both those vehicles?

SOunds an interesting way of doing it and something that could be incorporated into other events i suppose to stop the stupidly modified!

[KBE]

Hi mate, thanks for that,

In short Yes!

In your example of "2 x lockers, 2x winches on two different vehicles," if they both get the same punch. They both get the same score for that punch.

Also when you said "each modification/aid will incur a greater penalty to the vehicle therefore reducing punch socre" that is also correct.

As an example (but not cut in stone) a punch is worth 100 points. If i turned up with two winch's and two lockers i would get 5 points taken off the punch score for each mod i have. In this case my punch would be worth 80 points.

It was done really, to give cars that are not "fully" modified bit more of a chance. I know last year i would have loved a rear winch for one or two of the punchs i came accross but by putting that on it would've put me in modified and i wasn't ready for that (it was only my first year competing!) So we hope by this method, people with one or two mods will want to compete because they really do have a chance at pitting themselfs against the fully mofified teams!

I really hope the system will work well and get more people involved in this fast growing discipline.

Hope that helps.

Kev.

[V8CAMEL]

Hi mate, thanks for that,

In short Yes!

In your example of "2 x lockers, 2x winches on two different vehicles," if they both get the same punch. They both get the same score for that punch.

Also when you said "each modification/aid will incur a greater penalty to the vehicle therefore reducing punch socre" that is also correct.

As an example (but not cut in stone) a punch is worth 100 points. If i turned up with two winch's and two lockers i would get 5 points taken off the punch score for each mod i have. In this case my punch would be worth 80 points.

It was done really, to give cars that are not "fully" modified bit more of a chance. I know last year i would have loved a rear winch for one or two of the punchs i came accross but by putting that on it would've put me in modified and i wasn't ready for that (it was only my first year competing!) So we hope by this method, people with one or two mods will want to compete because they really do have a chance at pitting themselfs against the fully mofified teams!

I really hope the system will work well and get more people involved in this fast growing discipline.

Hope that helps.

Kev.

like the idea how many bonus points do i get for a series 3 with leaf springs,no power steering 2.25 petrol on 32 inch tyres over a 90 with coils power steering and 35 inch tyres and a tweaked TDI?

paul

[KBE]

like the idea how many bonus points do i get for a series 3 with leaf springs,no power steering 2.25 petrol on 32 inch tyres over a 90 with coils power steering and 35 inch tyres and a tweaked TDI?

paul

We could come to some arrangement Paul. We like leaf sprung vehicles. Paul's seriously thinking of doing it himself in his Lightweight with a tirfor!

[bathtub]

Well its your comp so your rules i supose

But can you publish a list of what you will penalise against???

Rear wheel steer =5 points

Portals =10 points

2 x lockers = 10 points {centre diff lock??}

4 x winches =20 points

power steering x 2 ????{read last post}= 10 points

42" tyres -5 points per inch i supose =35 points

Coil overs etc / air shocks {read last post}

Engine size / super charger / Nitros ???????

Connectable bridging ladders ??

Bead locks ????

Ive never found a penalise system works we have done some comps that we would have to get every punch & a standard Susuki just 20% & he would beat us .Fine if all the sections were really really tough but if say 80 out of 100 were easy with all the same points we would be completely F*** over as we backed off the trailor

Or will it be only the bits you cant fit on a TD5 90 then ???????

Your not a friend of Brian Hartley are you ??

[Mark90]

And in other scoring regimes (ie no classes, penalties, weights punch scores etc) those people with standardish vehicles are "completely F*** over" when they back off their trailer too.

I think as the top level of the sport is getting further and further from the grass roots level that is atainable by most (just take your trucks spec for instance) this kind of event is needed as it caters for a much wider audience than some comps. It's good that there are comps with no restrictions, but there is also a place some those that do IMHO.

I for one (and I know there's many others too) applaude what the likes of Paul and Kev at Challenger 4x4 and JST et al are doing with their events to try and allow everyone to compete of some sort of level playing field, especially as someone will always moan it's not fair no matter what you do.

[dollythelw]

Well its your comp so your rules i supose

But can you publish a list of what you will penalise against???

Rear wheel steer =5 points

Portals =10 points

2 x lockers = 10 points {centre diff lock??}

4 x winches =20 points

power steering x 2 ????{read last post}= 10 points

42" tyres -5 points per inch i supose =35 points

Coil overs etc / air shocks {read last post}

Engine size / super charger / Nitros ???????

Connectable bridging ladders ??

Bead locks ????

Ive never found a penalise system works we have done some comps that we would have to get every punch & a standard Susuki just 20% & he would beat us .Fine if all the sections were really really tough but if say 80 out of 100 were easy with all the same points we would be completely F*** over as we backed off the trailor

Or will it be only the bits you cant fit on a TD5 90 then ???????

Your not a friend of Brian Hartley are you ??

Over 2000Kgs = 50 bonus points

[pugwash]

what about over 3000kg?

my vehicle gets over that with just me in it :D

[JST]

Errr Jim you meant stand alone seat rather than vehicle didn't you.....

What ever you do its hard to put vehicles into classes so that everyone competes for the same prizes. i tried this onthe first event by setting out punches that i reckon only modified would be able to get, eg 20 out of 100 only modified could get there modified get 80% ot total score as std can only get 80% of the punches but who defines what modified can get? etc etc

.

in the end i went back to classes and now have three so that theres a stepping stone from std to modified (eg std+1 or slightly modified which equates to two aids, eg 2 lockers or 2 winches or 1 of each) central diff lock not counting as an aid. i then weight the punches using GBMUDs' better half excel sheet depending on how many vehicles get that punch per class. seems to work to date otherwise as Pete says a fully modified is on a looser before even coming of fthe trailer compared to the std class 90 that jsut drove to the event.

Just my thoughts.

cheers for the vote of confidence Mark

[bathtub]

in the end i went back to classes and now have three so that theres a stepping stone from std to modified (eg std+1 or slightly modified which equates to two aids, eg 2 lockers or 2 winches or 1 of each) central diff lock not counting as an aid. i then weight the punches using GBMUDs' better half excel sheet depending on how many vehicles get that punch per class. seems to work to date otherwise as Pete says a fully modified is on a looser before even coming of fthe trailer compared to the std class 90 that jsut drove to the event.

Just my thoughts.

cheers for the vote of confidence Mark

yep thats about the only way it can ever really be fair IMHO as well plus it incourages organisers to put on hard sections .

Personaly i would rather do 4 punches no-one else could get & loose than just rush around going for the punch glory just to be able to get back & be worshipped on the web site

If you want to build an extreme rig then you want to do some extreme sections & get awarded for it.

If you use your daily drive & get safer punches at more quantity then you shouldnt be penalised either & if you get some of the hard ones that Rock on you deserve to win

GBMUDS is the only way i think .

[JST]

i concur but Chris' sheet must also be set so that it works independantly for each class otherwise say 6 modified and 1 std get 1 punch then the std looses out compared to the other stds. It has to be scored 6 modifieds for that punch so 100pts/6 each and one std for that punch 100pts/1. hope that makes sense

sorry to move OT from the event Thread but its a good point i feel.

[pigster]

decent prizes.. . arb's, beadlockers... yey.. its about time..

unlike a set of polybushes or decarbon dampers..

which I might add, I don't win either..

hopefully my driver will have the stamina to keep flicking the switch for the winch and also keep pushing down the go pedal - we may have a chance.

Challenger 4x4 The Club would like to announce its 2007 Tuff Trophy Challenge. In association with Staun Off Road Products.

The event will be in the form of punch challenge event and will be open to all, but membership of “Challenger 4x4 The Club” is mandatory for insurance purposes (nominal £10 fee for “competition only” members if not already a member) and any vehicle make. Each team will consist of a Driver, Co-driver and vehicle.

We have secured a large prize fund for this event. Consisting of: ARB air Locker, set of Staun Beadlock’s, Extreme hi-lift jacks and Staun tyre deflators, plus many more! Together worth over £1500!

The weekend’s event will cost £125 per Team, that’s only £62.50 for each day’s competing and with such good prizes on offer; we hope you’ll agree this is good value.

We will also host a BBQ and bonfire on the Saturday night to help you replace all the energy you lost during the day and provide Tea and Coffee stations around the event arena during the day.

The Tuff Trophy Challenge 2007 will take place over the weekend of the 7th/8th April 2007 at Tuff Terrains, off-road centre on a 193 acre site in Mid-Wales.

This site includes all the features you’d expect from a Challenge event site, plus many more surprises; it has water, mud runs and ruts, bogs, steep climbs, wooded and open areas, waterfalls and river-bed runs.  Camping facilities and a workshop area are also available.

The Tuff Trophy Challenge will operate a handicap scheme instead of a more traditional class system. As usual, points will be awarded for “collecting” punches distributed around the event arena, but each punch will have a MAXIMUM score allocated to it. The teams will have a handicap rating for each event based on vehicle specification (for example, number of winches, differential locks, tyre size etc.) and a team’s handicap rating will determine the actual score attained for each punch gained. We hope this approach will allow the “clubman” teams to compete with seasoned challenge teams.

In addition to collecting the punch’s there will be four “special” stages over the weekend. Some will entail driving; others will be a mental challenge.

A set of competition regulations will be sent to you on completion of the entry form, but as we are operating under MSA guidelines most of you (certainly those who have competed with the AWDC) will be familiar with them.

A large camping field is free and available from Friday night and we can also recommend local B+B’s to stay in if you prefer. (book through us for discounted rates!)

Entry fee can be paid by cheque to challenger4x4 the club, or you could ring Challenger4x4 and pay by credit card if you prefer.

Grid refs and directions will be forwarded to you on receipt of entry form.

Entry and membership forms:

Challenger_4x4_The_Club_entry_form.pdf

Challenger_4x4_The_Club_comp.pdf

Please complete and return to:

Challenger 4x4, Oxenden Road, Tongham, Surrey GU10 1AJ

I will be away for the weekend, so wont be able to answer any questions you may have until Tuesday, but feel free to phone Paul Bass at Challenger4x4 if you want to know more about the site etc. 01252 325930

 

Thanks for your time and look forward to seeing you there.

Kev.

[Divster]

hopefully my driver will have the stamina to keep flicking the switch for the winch and also keep pushing down the go pedal - we may have a chance.

For that you've got to have a working vehicle, which I understand is about as close to working as mine is at the mo

She hasn't let you out for another weekend surely???

[Adrian Turner]

decent prizes.. . arb's, beadlockers... yey.. its about time..

unlike a set of polybushes or decarbon dampers..

which I might add, I don't win either..

hopefully my driver will have the stamina to keep flicking the switch for the winch and also keep pushing down the go pedal - we may have a chance.

I take it you would like me to enter then!!! Oi! Les you up for biatch'in.... just asking as pigster may not be aloud out

dave you entered????

[pigster]

could do it in my own vehicle... its has a winch and ARB's and big tyres....

and a very good driver to boot, however I will let Adrian drive it instead as he is a cr*p winch monkey - -way toooo fat and unfit.

Oy Davister - stop playing on the web and get on with the motor - not long now before your barn space runs out..

and yes she would let me out I am sure )

I take it you would like me to enter then!!! Oi! Les you up for biatch'in.... just asking as pigster may not be aloud out

dave you entered????

[Divster]

dave you entered????

Not yet, I'm thinking about it though

[Top90]

But can you publish a list of what you will penalise against???

I'd be interested too, to see how things such as portals would afect the scoring.

My wealth of experiance won't make up for a heavy penalty on each punch.

Although I don't need to win, I'd like to have a chance not to come last!!

Rich

[KBE]

Apologies for the delay in replying but i've been away for a few days.

You will not be handicapped for having one winch on your vehicle.

You will be handicapped 10 points for having more than one winch on your vehicle.

You will be handicapped 10 points for having one or more after market axle lockers on your vehicle.

There will be a maximum handicap of 20 points that you can have.

So to answer a few questions i have had on email,

Q) How many more punch's do i have to get to beat a standard car if i'm fully modified?

A) If a "standard" vehicle gets 4 punch's at 100 points, A "modified" vehicle will have to get 5 punch's at 80 points each to equal there score! Not, i hope you will agree, unatainable.

A) Why do you want to give standard cars a better chance of getting good placings?

Q) We still believe that the most important things in a challenge competition is Good teamwork and a well prepared vehicle driven with mechanical sympathy. We want to smooth the curve a little.

A) What type of truck do you really think will win the day.

Q) Far to hard to say really, but my money is on a well equipped vehicle with two people in it that really communicate well under pressure and that have had some experience! I know thats a bit vague, sorry.

I've looked at past event results using the tried and tested "standard" "modified" route and was quite surprised. Not sure if this helps answer your question but i'll put it here anyway.

Cars A, A1 and A2 are fully modified. Cars B, B1 and B2 have only one winch each.

A got 55 punch's B got 43 punch's

A1 got 52 punch's B1 got 28 punch's

A2 got 50 punch's B2 got 23 punch's

In traditional scoring terms that relates to:

A =5500 points B=4300 points

A1=5200 points B1=2800 points

A2=5000 points B2=2300 points

However, with handicap scoring that changes to:

A =4400 points B=4300 points

A1=4160 points B1=2800 points

A2=4000 points B2=2300 points

What that did was put car B in second place overall! But car B was driven by a very experienced team! It didn't change car B1 or B2 postion! they were not experienced teams and did the best they could on the day.

You can see that Car B's points are way in excess to the other cars in there class and is a slight anomily, but it can happen! and if we did get a "standard" team car who can compete to that level, i would want that to reflect in the overall points table as i believe it shows what this sport is about.

OK, that covers the email Q's, i'll try to answer any others quicker now that i'm back!

Must apologise if there are multiple typo's in that text, i'm rushing around today at work because the Health and Safety officer is forcing me to re-enact an accident that happend last week when we almost blew up our servers when a power distribution unit shorted quite dramatically! I cant imagine why he wants me to have another go at it. All i know is Matt is quite nervous about it! He's the one who has to FLick the swicth again!!!and he's only just stopped twitching from the last time!

Cheers.

Kev.

[ogwi]

Hi Kev. Apart from dual winches and lockers, are then handicap points/limits for tyre sizes or structural mods from stock (I'm sure you know where I'm going with this one )? What about portals? I wasn't sure if you're list was supposed to be definative or just an example...?

[KBE]

Hi Kev. Apart from dual winches and lockers, are then handicap points/limits for tyre sizes or structural mods from stock (I'm sure you know where I'm going with this one )? What about portals? I wasn't sure if you're list was supposed to be definative or just an example...?

Yeh, i know where your going with it!!!!!

Its definitive mate, I want to keep this one simple.

I dont think portals will help to much out there and i dont believe tyre sizes are going to be a huge issue. I am assuming most vehicles will have over 33".

Could be wrong tho. its been known.

[bathtub]

Yeh, i know where your going with it!!!!!

Its definitive mate, I want to keep this one simple.

I dont think portals will help to much out there and i dont believe tyre sizes are going to be a huge issue. I am assuming most vehicles will have over 33".

Could be wrong tho. its been known.

Hate to say it but if they are the rules then i think it sounds fair

[KBE]

Hate to say it but if they are the rules then i think it sounds fair

Thanks very much, Thats all we want is a fair weekends competition.

[Adrian Turner]

Kevin,

I've had a word with the ugly bloke in the passenger seat and we're in So anyone else

[KBE]

Kevin,

I've had a word with the ugly bloke in the passenger seat and we're in So anyone else

Thats great to hear mate, but,,,,,,,,do you have to bring "The ugly one" we were trying to make it a beautiful people only event!!

only joking pigster, beers on us mate!