Portal Axled Trucks

[Corrode Finger]

The question i have came about through a conversation with a workmate today.

Basically i did not know the answer, so its over to you guys.

When building portal axle offroaders, why are the axles fitted onto an existing land rover?

I know its for ground clearance, lower drive etc.

Why has no-one that i know of, done things in a hybrid sense.

ie: Why not use the donor unimog, volvo etc and its chassis, and then fit the relevant engine transmission etc and bodywork of a landy onto it?

Would this be easier, is there regs that dissuade this being done?

This is not meant to upset anyone or anything like that, its just a question, that i do not know the answer too?

[Ex Member]

Unimogs have a "strange" drivetrain and suspension setup that would not lend itself to a Rover hybrid design. The C303s are leaf sprung and a coil sprung linked vehicle is better. If you want leaveds, the axles are almost a direct swap into a Series vehicle so this is obviously much easier than a body swap.

[Corrode Finger]

Ok.

But, ignorance showing through now.

If you were keeping the axles, chassis, etc but swapping for a landy engine, how does the 'strange' suspension setup affect putting a different bodyshell on top?

They are seperate chassis vehicles, yes?

Truck shaped, a 101 springs to mind?

Then for the volvo, it has leafs, ok, but parabolics exist, maybe, for this?

[Top90]

In my case......

The axles alone came up (cheap) and I really like the dimensions/look of a 90 pick up.

The pic below shows how much of a difference they make. Now I've twisted the front axle a few degrees the drag link is tucked up and not so vulnerable.

Rich

[Ex Member]

On the MOG, maybe, but why? The Unimog is a great vehicle in of itself. There would be nothing to gain by putting a Rover body on one....probably a ton to lose though.

[pugwash]

a few things that haven't been said.

a mog chassis is specifically designed to substantially flex in a way a land rover body won't. Mogs are also huge vehicles as standard- very high, wide and pretty long. most mog axles are narrowed for starters. There is also an issue of design suitability- mogs are very close to being tractors, but hybrids usually end up being much more user friendly- a lot can do 100mph or more.

Also parts for mogs are blooming expensive- TREs are £47 so replacing as much as possibly with LR stuff is much cheaper.

Then of course there is the weight issue- i don't know the weight of a 404 but i would guess it is substantially more than a typical 2.5 ton landy!

[RPR]

Other than the relative difficulty of fitting an LR body, there's no particular reason not to. The C303 is a forward control and, quite frankly, is better designed and more comfortable than a 101 if you wanted a forward control. The best trick is to coil the rear axle (the front is SOA) and bobtail it to get rid of the rear overhang. Personally, I would love a C303, but I already had the Tonka, so, on went the portals.

I don't know Mogs nearly as well, but just as fitting mog portals to a LR is much harder than C303 portals, so too fitting an LR body to a Mog strikes me as quite tricky.

[pugwash]

just found some 404 specs.

totally empty a 404 weighs 3 tons! so comp ready it would be at least 3.5 tons- 50% over the weight of a portalled LR!

[MogLite]

Like has been said already - Mog's are designed to twist their chassis. So getting a cage to fit and work with the chassis is a bit of a pig, obviously can, and has been done though.

Also Mogs are torque-tube. ie the propshaft runs inside a torque tube. This means that the transfer box is a pretty stressed, so swapping in a Rover transfer box and the rest of the drive train is pretty tricky.

Mog transfer box ISTR is with crawler gears (404) rather than 2-speed like a Rover.

Swapping a decent engine onto the Mog gearbox is again tricky - there are some 1/2 decent options with engines from Mercedes cars, but nothing really cool, and a Mog gearbox isn't exactly user friendly IMHO.

Volvos - don't know much about them

[Corrode Finger]

More ignorance and asking of 'obvious' questions/ stupid ones?

Due to the flex in the MOG chassis, hypothetically, would mounting a 'replacement' body on a similar mounting system to a 'normal' mog overcome this issue.

I assume that a rubber mounting, flexible body location would overcome this problem.

Ok, engines from a landy might not work, but as moglite highlighted, other merc engines would be options, so a merc v8 could work?

Weight is a possible issue, but i assume that by removing the upper body, (which is steel?) and putting something else on, the overall mass would reduce?

Is there a reason from a competitive point, why a 'hybridised' mog based vehicle would not be able to compete in the uk against other portal trucks?

With the volvo, being leaf sprung, and (not starting a fight) fridgefreezer using volvo portals on his 109, and it being a similar setup to landies, why this could not have a replacement 'hybrid esque' body installed?

Lots of questions, i know, but i have thought of more as i have read replies, and had the chance to think through the concept of the initial question and its permetations.

[dirtydiesel]

From the mog point of view ( as i don't know that much about the other girly variaty of portals )

Everything on mogs is insanely heavy and is usually designed that well for it's original purpose, that is nearly impossible to alter for other uses.

IE, in order to keep the torque tubes you need to keep the transfer box, which doesn't have low range so you then need to keep the gearbox (because of it's 18:1 first gear), and then your pretty f**ked as regards engine choice (because the original one is carp), and almost nothing from the merc range fits!!!

All the above only really applies to 404's

once you get into the later "U" series especially with the OM352 engine series you have a really good mechanical setup to start with the only problem them being the size, weight and cost of the base vehicle.

[RPR]

Repowering a C303 isn't all that difficult and was commonly done when I was in Malaysia. The B30A straight six was a good little engine but 125 hp and @ 140 lbs/ft of torque, even if it's all there from 900 rpm, isn't quite enough. The T-case is apparently pretty good but there were quire a few 303s with Toy and Nissan turbo diesel lumps and gearboxes in them. Some friends were rescuing a 306 6x6 when I was leaving and a @ Toyota 3.5? litre tdi from a truck was going in there.

At a 91" wheelbase and a forward control, a rebody would be difficult. But I wouldn't want to if you could take a TGB 1111 (Swedish anti-tank truck) like this:

and turn it into this:

If I had the money, garage space, and a more tolerant Missus, I would definitely have a 303!

[dollythelw]

303s are used for competition a fair bit in the north, personally given the choice between a 303 and a defender its a no brainer for me, the Volvo is bulletproof, carries huge amounts of carp and gets to some wierd places with relative ease as standard. Gayboy (another one of the spanners) is fitting a 300tdi auto to one, theres plenty of Td5 powered versions, Nissans, TLC lumps etc have been squeezed into them (the box and T case is pretty strong)

I dont think they would be overly clever for UK style winch gymnastics though as the breadvan design would get hammered. the leaf spring packs would need changing if you rebodied it with a landy as they are built to carry a load and the FC layout would need converting to landystyle PAS box - alternatively, bung a set of parabolics on a 303, rip the body off, build an FC cab and mega trayback back end and have something different for not a lot of money?

[Corrode Finger]

Aha,

So a 303 is "better" and could be 'converted' to another use then?

It is possible then that a body swap could be performed on volvo.

Thats interesting!!

So, Jez, in your post, you mention that its popular elsewhere, but as yet you do not know of anyone doing a 'hybridised' body onto one?

Regarding competition use, would a 303 be a hgv or a 'landy' type vehicle? And as such, would there be any other issues with it?

With a 91" wheelbase, its damn close to a challenge spec portal 90!!

Which kinda begs the question, why have the swaps been done the other way?

Ummm, volvo with a body swap, soo, how much can you obtain an interesting 'shell' for to go on the 303?

Its possible then, that a 303 could have another 'hybridised' body on it, thinking a little laterally, rather than being blinkered by a land rover. They have benefits, being ally, but?????

[FridgeFreezer]

I hear forward-control style can be interesting on descents, John Morgan rolled a rag-top mog end over end a while back (picture was in TOR) and it was nearly a very bad day for him.

Mogs are heavy and underpowered, one turned up to Bunny Lane a while back with what must've been ~44" tractor tyres on and while he never got bellied out he couldn't get up some of the climbs through sheer lack of BHP - he could chug along and probably tow a plough behind him without noticing but he couldn't get up a slippery climb where you needed a bit of momentum. He then stuck it sideways into the pond and had to be recovered by Ash

Here it is, he couldn't get up this slope (the small ones in the sandpit at bunny lane), the SWB in the background managed it!

Mogs & 303's are bigger than a LR so would be less than ideal on many events compared to a LR even using the same portals, it's like the Suzuki Vs LR difference but stepped up a size. In that respect, if it wasn't such a crock of sh*t highly involved project CosZuki's Vitararse would be well ahead of everyone. The trucks may have more advantage in deep slop but that's only one aspect of any event, there's no single vehicle that's the best at everything which is why people spend so much time modifying them! Where's the difference between re-bodying a 303 with a different engine etc. and re-axling a LR with a different engine etc.? How far apart do the two vehicles end up?

Look at that Zil 6x6 that turns up every so often - you could drive it in a straight line from one side of a site to another and it wouldn't get stuck, but in a punch challenge he struggles to maneuver it:

)

[dollythelw]

these boys win a lot

the tank killers get used in comps as well but not so popular due to "slightly" chilly winters making them less than comfy, nothing stopping you putting a different body on it, FC layout is visually entertaining down steep hills but you get used to it

This is a proto Sisu - its a daddy toy, if its in the way just demolish it

[CosZuki]

Thanks i think John?!?! but soon i get to see the thing in the flesh!! as Jez has said having seen what a 303 can get through in under over, i would have one and still want one, if you looking for one there is a couple on fleabay at the moment.

Just a point regarding my lump, i still think the set up on a LWB Sj would be even more killer, but thats a whole new nightmare! i just hope the dream i had the other night about coming home to find it had been rolled in a ccident on the road dint come true!

[Corrode Finger]

I would love to be able to get/ do something.

But as stated in the begginning of this post, its just a question, after having it put to me, and not being able to answer it, i put it out to you guys.

Its a bit like the little kid who replys to every statement with 'why'?

Too me it seems like a logical question to ask, yes there is alot of work, and the opposing question is, why bother doing it this way, when putting the portals under a landy works fine. I just approached the question from a different starting point.

The whole portal thing is fascinating, i am happy to admit i only know the generic bits that get posted about on here and printed in mags.

I wanted to approach this question with an open mind, and consider something that i have not seen written down elsewhere.

Equally, it brings up the next evolution of the question, which is, are Volvo's and Unimogs, the only source of Portals, other than the stuff that is made to go onto existing 'normal' axles. ( Ozzy co, cant remember name)

This may be stupid, maybe pointless in some peoples eyes, but if i do not ask, i will not know.

[dollythelw]

theres no such thing as a stupid question and open minds work better than blinkered ones

in terms of bolt-ons, theres Maxidrive for rover axles, Portal Tek for bespoke axles, I think Filthyboy is working on the nissan bolt-on side of life, the rest are re-worked components from vehicles that had portals as standard (hybrid Ford 9/Hummers are popular in the US)

the long and short of it boils down the money x labour = project equation - if you have a lot of one then the other is reduced

[Lewis]

Isnt there also Simca and UAZ stuff that's portal - I seem to remeber the Simca ones weigh more than the Eifel tower, and the UAZ ones had a load of offset on the drop box thus negating the portal benefit?

[dollythelw]

the UAZ axle was built for the Afgan war to fix the issues the stock axle had with big rocks its cheap as chips to buy brand new from UAZ direct but they dont have a locker, the drop is only 3"

We have a SUMB on the farm. I hate working on it - the portal design sucks and they do infact weigh more than Vanessa Feltz

[sheeppimp]

another question following on from the bolt on options. If the Maxi-drive bolt on drop box was fitted to a stadard rover axle would that then require the rest of the axle assembly being strengthened or would the reduction effect of the dropbox protect the rest of the drivetrain?

and if so is it feasible to create drop boxes at home, i seem to remember a thread along these lines?

[Corrode Finger]

Jez,

As you have been to the less well known parts of Europe, atleast from westerners point of view, are there any russian or other vehicles that are possible portal donors?

edit to say, whilst typing this the question was asked and answered

Yeah, Maxidrive was the name, i could not remember it.

So, from what i can deduce, you think that a hybridised volvo, could work, obviously the style, exact body donor is up for interpretation? And of course there is a fair amount of work, probably as involved as doing things the 'normal' way.

Fridge has a point, i geuss, a rebodied volvo, is the same potentially in the end as a re-axled landy?

I am assuming that the Sisu is portaled?

Ooh, so many questions, the more answers posted, the more 'odd' things i think of, you may all wish in the end that you had not answered, if i keep thinking of things like this.

[dollythelw]

Anything can be made to work

Sisus arent portalled - they are just savage

put as many motors on a leccy winch as you like but its never gonna haul like this beastie

[Astro_Al]

There are other donor vehicles (agricultural, mostly I think), but after the more common flavours they tend to get a bit too hard to find for spares etc IMHO.

Its hard enough to find a unimog axle of the right ratios (diff & portals) sometimes, or fast ratio volvos...

Why do you even need to re-body a volvo to look like a landy? Just run the volvo?

Sheeppimp - yes the torque reduction at the portal does protect the rest of the drivetrain from loads. But then remember you need to counteract the reduction ratio if you want to maintain a decent top speed.

People do make their own portals, its only a couple of gears in the end (not that I could do it). But unless you have all the skills and bits lying around, buying some makes a lot more sense.

Al.