geoffbeaumont Posted October 29, 2007 Share Posted October 29, 2007 Tenuous Land Rover content: I'm using the pug as a test before I take any risks with the Discovery! Decided to experiment with biodiesel in the 106 last week - serviced it first, except for the fuel filter which I figured I'd change after the bio had flushed all the crud out the pipes. Probably the first oil change in years - I bought the car off eBay about easter time for a whole £180, I haven't serviced it before and I don't think the previous owners did either... It misfires and chugs out lots of lovely smelly smoke when you start it, but once it's warm it runs fine under load, except for a tendency to stall. Wierdly, this happens when changing up as I slow down for junctions - come off the power, start to coast down, change down matching revs and a moment later it dies. It always starts straight away when this happens, even though it's normally a pretty lazy starter, and I can't find any other way to trigger it. I assumed the fuel filter was blocked up and changed it, filling the new one with injector cleaner. I've bled the filter and taken it for a good ragging, so there shouldn't be any air trapped in the system - in any case I presume if I had air locks or a blocked injector it would run badly under load? I guess it's possible this engine just doesn't like biodiesel - anyone have any experience of running this engine on bio? On paper it ought to be fine, it's an old N/A 1.4 clockwork diesel. It is, however, a fairly knackered one. Only way I can test this is to use what's in it and then fill up with mineral diesel and see if it starts behaving itself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
white90 Posted October 29, 2007 Share Posted October 29, 2007 is it rotary pump or common rail? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geoffbeaumont Posted October 29, 2007 Author Share Posted October 29, 2007 is it rotary pump or common rail? rotary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sotal Posted October 29, 2007 Share Posted October 29, 2007 pugs had rotary pumps until about 1999 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Daan Posted October 29, 2007 Share Posted October 29, 2007 You should only attempt it with a bosch pump, the lucas cav pump will fail eventually. What do you pay for biodiesel in your area? I have looked at it over here, but the price is virtually the same as ordinary diesel. Or are you brewing it in your garage? Daan Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geoffbeaumont Posted October 29, 2007 Author Share Posted October 29, 2007 86.5p/l - all diesel pumps in the same area (Vale of Evesham) are 102.9p/l now, although I can get it near home (Birmingham) for 98.9p/l still, so it's a pretty significant saving - £10 every time I fill up if I start running the discovery on it. No idea if the peugeot has a bosch or lucas pump, but it's an expendable banger anyway - if it's saving me significant amount on the fuel I can risk long term damage, if it breaks I'll just scrap the car. What does the discovery have? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
white90 Posted October 29, 2007 Share Posted October 29, 2007 bosch rotary Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Exmoor Beast Posted October 29, 2007 Share Posted October 29, 2007 One of the blokes on a site I am working on ran his Pug on Rapeseed oil for ages, he has just bought a 200TDi Disco and is intending doing the same. Several of the chaps over at Land Rover Addict are using up to 30% Rapeseed oil in various TDi's. Will Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sotal Posted October 29, 2007 Share Posted October 29, 2007 86.5p/l - all diesel pumps in the same area (Vale of Evesham) are 102.9p/l now, although I can get it near home (Birmingham) for 98.9p/l still, so it's a pretty significant saving - £10 every time I fill up if I start running the discovery on it.No idea if the peugeot has a bosch or lucas pump, but it's an expendable banger anyway - if it's saving me significant amount on the fuel I can risk long term damage, if it breaks I'll just scrap the car. What does the discovery have? They used both the bosch and the lucas on the pugs, I'm sure it says on the pump, I've just managed to get rid of my second peugeot I've ever owned both were diesels, I have now vowed never to own any French car ever again - I've now got two much more reliable Land Rovers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geoffbeaumont Posted October 29, 2007 Author Share Posted October 29, 2007 They used both the bosch and the lucas on the pugs, I'm sure it says on the pump, I've just managed to get rid of my second peugeot I've ever owned both were diesels, I have now vowed never to own any French car ever again - I've now got two much more reliable Land Rovers I bought this one so I had a car I could rely on as well as the Land Rovers... It's a banger, but it's a thoroughly dependable, economical little banger Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheRecklessEngineer Posted October 29, 2007 Share Posted October 29, 2007 You should only attempt it with a bosch pump, the lucas cav pump will fail eventually.What do you pay for biodiesel in your area? I have looked at it over here, but the price is virtually the same as ordinary diesel. Or are you brewing it in your garage? Biodiesel, as in proper biodiesel made by the transesterification of vegetable oil using a chemical process, will be fine in a lucas pump. The theory is that it should be fine in ANY diesel engine, even these new fangled electrickery driven mostrosities, however, I would have doubts putting it in anything new without knowing how well it was made. Lucas pumps will fail on vegetable oil or biodiesel that is made from blending vegetable oil with a cutting agent (white spirit, acetone, etc...) Now i'm back in the UK, i'm putting biodiesel in my 300TDi disco. No problems so far, even with my dodgy homemade stuff - runs better than on diesel in fact. While in Greece, I used up to around 75/25% vegetable oil/diesel. Not ideal, but given that the ambient temperature was in excess of 40 this mix worked quite well - wouldn't go about 30% in this country though... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jules Posted October 29, 2007 Share Posted October 29, 2007 I ran my D2 Td5 on SFO on and off for a month or so and had no trouble but I was recomenbed not ro run it due to having a electric pump in the disco. I was testing it on 60% SFO and 40% diesel and it seamed to drive better on it. I'm still keen to find out more about Bio Diesel, or Sunflower Oil I didn't realise that BD was only about 10% chaeper if thats the case is there any point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geoffbeaumont Posted October 29, 2007 Author Share Posted October 29, 2007 Biodiesel, as in proper biodiesel made by the transesterification of vegetable oil using a chemical process, will be fine in a lucas pump. The theory is that it should be fine in ANY diesel engine, even these new fangled electrickery driven mostrosities, however, I would have doubts putting it in anything new without knowing how well it was made. This is proper biodiesel (although I did try SVO mix in it before - seemed okay, possibly a little down on power but it's hard to judge in a car that doesn't have any in the first place... ). I have read that there have been some problems with biodiesel molecules getting torn apart under the extreme pressures in some modern diesel injection systems, but then there have apparently been similar problems with mineral diesel too. I didn't realise that BD was only about 10% chaeper if thats the case is there any point. That's still a lot of money if you do high mileage... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geoffbeaumont Posted November 14, 2007 Author Share Posted November 14, 2007 Dragging this thread dangerously on topic... Having decided that the pug just doesn't like biodiesel (it's back on the planet destroying stuff and happy again), I've risked a bit in the Discovery. Much better than the pug - it runs quite happily - but I have noticed it seems slightly more reluctant to start on cold mornings. It's not even close to being a problem, but it normally starts very easily (literally one flick of the key and it's running). Particularly given my dad's theory as to why the Discovery will run on bio and the pug won't (he thinks the bio is probably a bit heavier, which would affect a smaller engine more than a large one?), I'm wondering what temperatures people have used biodiesel at? I'm a concerned that if it's a little reluctant on a slightly nippy morning in Birmingham it's not going to play at all on a cold winter day at my parents in Aberdeenshire... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheRecklessEngineer Posted November 14, 2007 Share Posted November 14, 2007 My bet is that the timing is out on the pug... 5% petrol solves the cold starting problem quite nicely. You can also try adding 14ml acetone per litre of bio (yes, sounds like an infinitesimly small amount to make a difference, but it does! Something to do with surface tension...14ml seems to be the ideal - some people claim an increase of around 2mpg as well, haven't been watching personnally...) The only thing you really need to watch is the filter plugging point of the bio - it will start to turn solid at low temperatures (much like diesel in the days before additives) and clog up your fuel filter. Again, 5% petrol will improve this (they still do it in russia). Get a sample of bio from your supplier and put it in a jam jar in the freezer. See if it stays liquid. If it is well made then it will - and you should be fine in Aberdeenshire... If not, try again with a little petrol. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geoffbeaumont Posted November 14, 2007 Author Share Posted November 14, 2007 My bet is that the timing is out on the pug... That wouldn't surprise me at all - the engine is a smoky, leaky old nail 5% petrol solves the cold starting problem quite nicely. You can also try adding 14ml acetone per litre of bio (yes, sounds like an infinitesimly small amount to make a difference, but it does! Something to do with surface tension...14ml seems to be the ideal - some people claim an increase of around 2mpg as well, haven't been watching personnally...) I'd heard of doing both those to SVO, but not biodiesel. The only thing you really need to watch is the filter plugging point of the bio - it will start to turn solid at low temperatures (much like diesel in the days before additives) and clog up your fuel filter. Again, 5% petrol will improve this (they still do it in russia). Get a sample of bio from your supplier and put it in a jam jar in the freezer. See if it stays liquid. If it is well made then it will - and you should be fine in Aberdeenshire... If not, try again with a little petrol. Hmm... A domestic freezer isn't that much colder than Aberdeenshire at times! I've seen -15oC in Aberdeen (on the coast) and -19oC in the mountains. The freezer should be about -18oC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geoffbeaumont Posted November 15, 2007 Author Share Posted November 15, 2007 Stuck a tub of biodiesel in the freezer last night - it turned to solid wax after a few hours. Does that mean my local supplier doesn't produce the highest quality bio...? I might do a bit of experimenting with petrol or acetone, but I'll be topping up with dead plankton for the Lakes this weekend. I'm still not totally convinced by biodiesel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tacr2man Posted November 15, 2007 Share Posted November 15, 2007 I run LDV with peugeot engine N reg 300tdi auto disco, and a 200tdi auto disco, and a maestro td all on 50% bio/ dino diesel mix with 30% SVO (tesco), in winter add 3% petro1 no probs with any of them 2 1/2 years. DONT put any petrol in common rail diesel engines HTSH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rollazuki Posted November 15, 2007 Share Posted November 15, 2007 Im running a 2.8 Pajero, and previuosly a 1.7 Isuzu tdi. Both run just fine on approx 20-30% straight veg oil, and the remainder diesel. Id never recomend white spirit/petrol/acetone, as non are lubricants, and diesel pumps dont like it. Ive never had any cold weather issues, but then I never go above the 30% mark. I usually use supermarket veg oil(usually rapeseed), but have used soya as well(nice doughnut smell). Problem is now, Asda have just bunged the cost up by about 12p per litre, presumably cos I go in there and buy them out every few weeks........... Car runs well, sounds sweeter, smells lovely, and costs less to run. Has a smaller carbon footprint, and leaves me feeling smug. Ive been doing this for about 2 years now, and never had any ill effects. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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