Megasquirt v Emerald

[Boothy]

Now talking to the boys that are modding rally cars and strip racers using Duratec's and similar they're all telling me Megasquirt is carp and massively outdated and flawed, even Squirt 2 and I should be looking at Emerald 3d's K3 ECU and software as a real up to date system for similar money.

The part where a Lamba sensor is not used because a more accurate method is set using proper equipment on a rolling road nailed and left in the ECU makes a lot of sense to me.

From spending lots of time reading megaquirt threads it seems that a lot of time is being spent tweaking and then the end performance is assessed via road test and the "that feels better" syndrome is then tapped in, which I'm sure the tuners that know their worth will surely agree is not the best way of keeping a tuned engine healthy and happy.

Weather, humidity and temperature changes can have dramatic effects on engine output figures within hours, as we all know and not the settings which could have just been tapped in, I'm sure it happens.

Please, please, don't think I'm having a dig at anybody, just airing my thoughts out loud, it seems to me that when your tweaking ignition maps and curves etc unless you have access to some very professional test gear that can give accurate readings that some very poorly set up megasquirted motors must be about.

Any comments please just in the thinking stage especially on the Emerald.

Boothy

[TomG]

I don't know much about Emerald but are they comparing it to the 'Extra' version of Megasquirt? e.g. MS1/Extra or MS2/Extra?

I had a quick browse through Emerald's specs and info and don't see anything radically different to what MS1/Extra does.

It says Emerald has 3 ignition coil drivers which may be a problem if you were looking to drive a V8 in direct coil drive wasted spark mode (which would need 4 coil drivers)

In Megasquirt, changes in weather / altitude (air density) and inlet air temperature are taken into account by the initial reading of the MAP sensor which has an effect through the fuelling algorithm - constant barometric correction (for racing up mountains) is also possible using a second pressure sensor.

Megasquirt has some superb, easy to use (and free) software available for tuning, mainly Megatune and Megalogviewer and the amount of info available online and through the community (including here) is second to none.

I think regardless of which aftermarket ECU used, ultimately the best tune (for max bhp/torque) would be achieved on a rolling road then run it closed loop with a wideband lambda from there after.

Price wise...

Emerald K3 ECU - £580 + VAT

(quoting extraefi.co.uk prices, which include VAT i think)

MS1-Extra Direct Coil Drive 8 cylinder Setup : £320

or

MS1-Extra Ford EDIS 4, 6 and 8 Based Setup : £275

or

Build it yourself for even less

The thing which appeals to me about MS is the openness of how everything works, nothing is hidden. If you wish, you can delve into the assembly language code which makes it tick or see all the electronics schematics. Optionally, folk volunteer their time to be part of the development community and helping to improve the system for the whole community. Gets you that warm fuzzy feeling

Quite a few folk on LR4x4 are running MS now on the Rover V8, there's a lot of info in the threads and various fuel and ignition maps are available so you should be able to hit the ground running and tune from there.

[RRX]

Never heard anything bad about emerald ECU's as they have been used to power allsorts and is also a tune it yourself system. I think its more that Dave who sells maps them really does know alot about setting an engine up that makes them so good as most megasquirt systems do seem to be home mapped and run worse than carp(present company excluded )

[Boothy]

Just to stop any confusion, it was not Emerald 3D who called Megasquirt, it was some of the lads I knock about with that are tuning their own race cars locally to where I live.

Very fair and sensible comments Tom G, thanks.

Boothy

[Hybrid_From_Hell]

I know a bit about emerald, and it is good.

However the costs are far higher, and it is not the Holy Grail, I think what you have here is a case of "I have this, and everyhting else is inferior" type of mindset. DTA is another system, this I spoke to Mark Adams about it - his views were it is good, - but expensive and everything - inc the software has to be bought - oh and it horrific to use, not as bad as emerald but not exacty user friendly, and Mark makes a good living setting up engines for owbers of emerald and dta partly due to his vast knowledge and partly due to the fact the software and userbility is as it is.

When I discussed MS with him his views were simple, - it is good, he rates it (thats good enough for me !) and is very user friendly, BUT - the big downside is that it is not a commerical 'off the shelf' recgonised sytsem - therefore Mr "Big Cheque book and in a hurry" won't even consider it - to difficult.

I think those same people who have staed the above re MS prob have little knowledge of their emerald system, word of mouth within the group has just made MS "****" and emerald the "Dogs" and so they will all tow that line, I'd place a bet if you asked much detailed question re what they have and how it works you'd get thin scetchy replies cos its been done for them, they have paid a lot, ......and thus its the best ....everything else is junk attitude.

Lastly I have had the 90 on a rolling road, the "thing" they shove up the exhaust whilst tuning it is ?

A Lamda Sensor !

Personally I have looked at all the systems they all do the same thing but differenetly,

one is better in one way and worse in another, MS for all its sins is highly supported,

consdtantly upgrading and is frankly damned good around, but you have to do a lot yourself, for many that is the killer blow....

Nige

[Tomcat Nev]

I think Nige and TomG have given you some good answers.

For me the difference boils down to whether you want to be involved (MS) or just want to drive in/drive out (Emerald)!

Think about what you want to do in terms of the work you put in compared to what you can spend and then that should give you the answer about whats 'best' for you.

At the end of the day you just need to control fuel and spark timing in the optimum way for your engine, both systems can do that..........

Nev

[will_warne]

Boothy, I've been doing a little research on the differant aftermarket ECU's for a few months now for my Lotus (Rover K-series engine). First off, Megasquirt isn't really an option for me as it won't support the security system without a lot of work so therefore isn't worth the lower cost. However, I know several people who've been involved with it from early on including a chap who wrote some of the programming and it is a good peice of kit. I think the reasons people shun it is because its a bit home brew which does mean it can go horribly wrong if your not careful.

Emerald has a good reputation and is very popular for tuning K-series as its a straight swap. Its also fairly cheap and, as its popular, Dave Walker has maps for pretty much any K-series setup under the sun unless its something very odd meaning very little or no rolling road time. They're also what arguably the best K-series builder (Dave Andrews) uses so that's good enough for me.

DTA that Nige mentioned also has a good reputation and the pricing is simerlar to Emerald (at least for the E48 EXP ECU used for K-series).

[FridgeFreezer]

I think what others have said is bang on, it's just a lack of understanding - if you'd spent a load of money on something would you want to admit your mate could do the same thing for half the price with a DIY kit?

The bit about not using a lambda sensor is clearly a lack of understanding about how both systems work

I can't find anything significant about the Emerald K3 that the MS/MS2 can't do.

I can find quite a bit about the MegaSquirt/MS2 that the Emerald can't do or would cost extra.

The MegaSquirt has a lot of friendly support and experience here, and a support forum with thousands of members. If you want it to do something it doesn't already do, there's a good chance someone will add it.

[Boothy]

Lads, Thank you for the time you spent replying.

Following that I will be using Megasquirt as I was in an I'm not sure yet stage.

Hybrid from Hell, I stand corrected, I now know its lumbadido sensor but got it wrong I'm sorry I'm from up North yer know.

I was talking at the Eurochallenge this summer to Roger (I struggle2gate) who almost convinced me then, saying how sweet his MS runs, but after loads of problems with my own after a serious rebuild I've left alone a while.

I've got a Malllory electronic dizzy and a Mark Adams bespoke chip which works really well in a 14CUX with all the toys added and am hesistant to move on again, but always feel thats there is a bit more to gained.

Look forward to meeting and seeing some MSquirters in action I believe a few of you may be doing some rounds of the HW 2008 Challenges this year, I always feel like the last of the V8's with all them clattering oil burners things going twang all around me.

Thanks again, and I was just after opinions thats all.

Boothy (from up North)

[Bull Bar Cowboy]

I guess the big plus for MS is that it is all public domain……………. The ecu schematics, the firmware, and the tuning software………… this has opened the doors to all sorts of useful addons ……..MLV, Easytherm, MSTweak300, and Megatunix to name but a few……..the public domain thing is a big issue for me …………… at least I wont have some ecu manufacturer with my arm up my back demanding more money for ‘fixes’

To tune an engine you must have a fundamental understanding of how the engine works, how timing is related to combustion chamber design, and the relationship between torque, timing and AFR…………

My tuning began with the building of race A series engines in the early 70’s ……….. in those days we had no electronic aids…………… you learnt the hard way…….. on the track ……timing and AFR’s were almost self preservation ……….. if you got it wrong (as I did an a few occasions) then it emptied the wallet very quickly…………

I too am familiar with both Emerald and DTA ………… the later can be dismissed as it is far too expensive for the specification offered. DTA remains the choice of the rally cars, but don’t expect much change from £2K to walk away with a completely tuned engine…………

Emerald is good, but no better and no worse than MS ………. Although it does have some nice touches like support for VVT, however, I cant understand the need for triple VE maps !………..but again to walk away with a fully tuned motor that you can place your trust in, the budget should be in excess of £1K

MS will also run without Lambda sensing, but why would you want to that ………..99.9% of mass produced cars manufactured in the last 10 years all have lambda sensors (many of them have 2, pre and post cat)………….. I’m sure that if a manufacturer thought they could be removed, then they would as the savings would be huge……….in a properly tuned engine, lambda sensing keeps the AFR correct by accounting for the many variable that can (sometimes significantly) change the tune………..mainly air density ,fuel additive variations, and engine wear………….

When you tune your motor on a RR, it’s the inbuilt lambda sensor in the exhaust probe that provides a lot of the data …………….

At the end of the day all the ECU has to do is provide the engine with the correct AFR and spark timing under all conditions of speed and load ………provided that the ECU has a correct interpretation of the engine parameters as supplied by the sensors then the ECU could be Emerald, DTA or MS (or indeed one of another 4 or 5 on the market).

I guess because MS is relatively cheap and help is available in the public domain, then it probably encourages (to some extent) the lower end of the market ………… those folk that think they know, but don’t have a f’kin clue ……………… again it could be Emerald, DTA or MS………. unless its done properly then it will be a pile of sh!te

Remember the engine has to be in good running mechanical order to get good tuning results ……….. you cant polish a turd…………….

Ian