Trouble changing gear

[steve200TDi]

Hi,

This morning on the way to college I experienced trouble changing gear and selecting a gear when I put the clutch down.

What would cause this? Is it something to do with the gear selector? Is it worn, needs greasing?

At one point sitting in traffic out of gear, when I went to move away I could not select 1st gear and had to push it into a near layby. I had a play trying to select gears and it seemed quite difficult, I managed to select first and moved away. It seemed to be ok changing gear on the move, (but you have to be quite positive otherwise you get a horrible crunching sound) and so I carried on with that method.

Any ideas of things to check or replace would be gratefull.

Thanks

Steve

[101sean]

You clutch isn't disengaging fully. Check clutch master and slave cylinders for leaks and the flexi hose for ballooning.

[steve200TDi]

Ok,

Where is the flexi hose you speak of. Is it just a hose going from the clutch pedal to the clutch in the bell housing.

Steve

[jimmy_neutron]

Ok,

Where is the flexi hose you speak of. Is it just a hose going from the clutch pedal to the clutch in the bell housing.

Steve

Yeah .. crawl underneath behind the front passenger wheel and look up. It sits just above the chasis.

You got the clutch slave cylinder, then a short metal pipe, then the rubber hose.

[jimmy_neutron]

Hi,

This morning on the way to college I experienced trouble changing gear and selecting a gear when I put the clutch down.

What would cause this? Is it something to do with the gear selector? Is it worn, needs greasing?

At one point sitting in traffic out of gear, when I went to move away I could not select 1st gear and had to push it into a near layby. I had a play trying to select gears and it seemed quite difficult, I managed to select first and moved away. It seemed to be ok changing gear on the move, (but you have to be quite positive otherwise you get a horrible crunching sound) and so I carried on with that method.

Any ideas of things to check or replace would be gratefull.

Thanks

Steve

If the clutch master cylinder is failing then you sometimes get a pool starting to appear on the floor. Its worth looking for this damp patch.

[dennisthemennis.co.uk]

I am hesitant to post here because its like making up a diagnosis for someone's health, it might be wrong. But it sounds like a problem I had last week, mine started by jumping out of gears and then unless I wrestled with the gearstick it wouldn't go in without crunching. I thought it might be clutch problems until in the end it wouldn't stay in 3rd gear so I took a guess and advice. It turned out to need a new gearbox.

[101sean]

Trying not to panic a new guy by eliminating the usual and easy causes first!

99% of the time it will be clutch hydraulics, other 1% will be clutch fork breaking up or gearbox failure

[Matt Neale]

It may be simpler than that.

If the gears grind when you try to engage a gear, I'd suspect clutch hydraulics - either the flexi hose as stated in a previous post, or more likely master/slave cylinder failing.

If however the gears don't grind (ie, it's very very hard to actually move the lever, but with a touch of double-declutching it'll go in) then I'd suggest a change of gearbox oil.

Manual gearboxes are designed to run on ATF / MT95. Putting a thick gear oil such as EP80 / 90 in there will cause havoc with the sychros and make gear selection very difficult. It'll also kill the internal oil pump over time too.

Matt

[steve200TDi]

Thanks for all your help so far.

I've had a look around and cannot find any visiable leaks anywhere in the engine bay around the master or on the ground or underneath near the slave. I'm guessing it couldn't be an internal leak which is not visible yet.

Oh and I checked the clutch fluid level and it is right up at the filler neck, so no signs of leaking.

Could it be that the flexi pipe it perished and ballooning (but there's no sign of a leak!?), would this be worthwhile changing?

But I do remember last year when I wanted to check all the levels that I investigated what oil I needed and came to the conclusion that it was EP80/90. I only put a little in to top it up but that may have been enough to make gear selection difficult. I may have found the answer.

I think this weekend I may need to do an oil change on the gearbox! Hope it cues it!

Thanks Matt for the advice.

Steve

[Big_John]

I changed the oil in mine the other weekend, made the world of difference! It was no way near as bad as yours sounds - just a bit crunchy when changing, but replacing the brown water-like fluid that came out has sorted it right out.

The drain plug was stupid tight and access is pretty limited so couldn't get a big breaker bar on. Ended up using my large adjustable spanner and jacking the end of it 'till it budged - after checking 4 times I was turning it the right way!

Only had it a few months so I have no idea when it was last done, although it does have a pretty good service history (which I'm now a bit suspect of!).

Good luck, let us know.

John

[Matt Neale]

Thanks for all your help so far.

I've had a look around and cannot find any visiable leaks anywhere in the engine bay around the master or on the ground or underneath near the slave. I'm guessing it couldn't be an internal leak which is not visible yet.

Oh and I checked the clutch fluid level and it is right up at the filler neck, so no signs of leaking.

Could it be that the flexi pipe it perished and ballooning (but there's no sign of a leak!?), would this be worthwhile changing?

But I do remember last year when I wanted to check all the levels that I investigated what oil I needed and came to the conclusion that it was EP80/90. I only put a little in to top it up but that may have been enough to make gear selection difficult. I may have found the answer.

I think this weekend I may need to do an oil change on the gearbox! Hope it cues it!

Thanks Matt for the advice.

Steve

No worries.

ATF - or preferably MT95 in the main box. EP80w90 in the transfer box.

If you call in at your local garden centre and pick up one of those hozelock water / weedkiller units which you fill, then pump to pressurise, you'll find it's ideal for ATF and other thin oils. Makes refilling the main gearbox a LOT easier.

There are two drains on the main box too... One with a 24mm (IIRC) flanged nut on the bottom of the fifth gear housing - that one also has a gauze filter inside which will need cleaning. The second is on the side of the box (32mm) and has a magnetic pickup on it. Don't be surprised if that one looks like a Christmas tree with the amount of metal shavings its collected!

Let the box drain right down, refit the drain plugs after cleaning everything up, and refill to the level plug (13mm square plug).

Hope this helps.

Matt

[m0bcg]

hi steve ;

i take it that you have a good gearbox but it is crunching when trying to change gear, and it is probably harder to change when everything is cold .

i know people say good things about using synthetic oils and stuff but to be honest everytime i have ever had a landrover gearbox problem with changing gear like you mention, it is allways due to the fact i should be using ordinary auto transmission fluid like DEXRON 2 or 3 .

i have never had a problem with any gearbox i use if it has dexron atf in it, ie i mean LT77 and R380 gearboxes .

if i use any other type of oil in them i experience problems in gearchanging when cold .

the viscosity of dexron is ideally suited to landrover gearboxes but i can not say that the new synthetic oils etc are of the same .

what you need is a fluid which is exactly the same viscosity as dexron or it must be thinner, but most definately not thicker viscosity otherwise you will experience the problems as you mentioned .

if you want to try something quick to try and cure your problem within 10 minutes of doing so then i suggest you put add a litre or more of diesel to the oil currently the gearbox , this will thin down the oil currently in there and will show you if gearchanges can be smooth when the oil is thinner .

you can then drive the vehicle and also change the oil later to something more suiteable .

everyone will want you to buy their "high performance" synthetic oils , but at the end of the day you do not need these in landrover gearboxes , but what you do need is something that lubrcates "like a sewing machine" and as of yet i have found no 100% alternative for landy gearboxes than DEXRON ATF .

my LT77 runs perfectly on dexron , and ive owned it for 10years without problems , my R380 runs perfectly with dexron in it and again ive owned and maintained that for 8 years .

why do i need to buy expensive oils when ordinary ATF does a much better job and i dont have the problems everyone else does .

if you have a racing car you run it with the thinnest engine and gearbox oils that you possibly can , to maintain the best lubrication and the minimum of friction and the same rings true for landy gearboxes .

you can thin the present oil in your gearbox down with petrol or kerosene or diesel, whichever you have to hand at the time it will all work to reduce the oils viscosity .

easiest way to fill gearbox with oil is to have a 5 feet long plastic hose with a small funnel on one end and tied up somewhere , then put the hose into the gearbox filler .

fill the funnel from a good vantage point and you dont have a problem of lying on your back or trying to pump oil in and getting it in your face etc .

cheers.

ian

I've had a look around and cannot find any visiable leaks anywhere in the engine bay around the master or on the ground or underneath near the slave. I'm guessing it couldn't be an internal leak which is not visible yet.

Oh and I checked the clutch fluid level and it is right up at the filler neck, so no signs of leaking.

Could it be that the flexi pipe it perished and ballooning (but there's no sign of a leak!?), would this be worthwhile changing?

But I do remember last year when I wanted to check all the levels that I investigated what oil I needed and came to the conclusion that it was EP80/90. I only put a little in to top it up but that may have been enough to make gear selection difficult. I may have found the answer.

I think this weekend I may need to do an oil change on the gearbox! Hope it cues it!

Thanks Matt for the advice.

Steve

[steve200TDi]

Just an update so far.

I changed the oil in the gearbox today.

Sure enough when I took the drain plug out it did look like a christmas tree!!

But when I took the other plug out with the gauze filter in, it was covered in dirt and muck which I presume were more metal shavings that didn't get picked up by the magnetic plug.

Am I right in think that the oil pump draws oil from the gauze filter, so maybe this could be causing a lack of oil to be circulated.

Hopefully I'll take it out for a test drive 2mo, if not monday on the way to work and report back.

Oh and next time I change the gearbox oil I think I will invest in a weed killer squirty thing!

Steve

[101sean]

weed killer squirty thing

Deffo way to go, will pump EP90 as well use it all the time..

Lidl in Ireland are doing an oil pump thingy for €7.99 next week, check the UK site

[steve200TDi]

Hi,

I took it out for a drive on sunday and it seemed a lot better - gear changes were easier and i could find them!

But on the way to work this morning I had a few moments when i had trouble finding a gear, but I found one eventually, after declutching a few times.

Could it be that selector forks and linkages connected to the gear stick have worn? the clutch if definitely not leaking!

Overall I think changing the oil has helped, but it's still not perfect.

Any thoughts.

Steve

[TheHarv]

Have you actually popped the slave cylinder out yet?

How does the clutch fluid look (clear and yellow or cloudy and black?)

The slave boot/seal can breakdown and then you get crud in the fluid - which makes the clutch fail to disengage fully especially when hot. That's what happened to me anyhow.

[steve200TDi]

Hi,

So is it still worth taking the slave cylinder out ot look at it even though it cant be leaking because the clutch fluid level is still at max.

Could it be something to do with the gearbox e.g. selectors or syncro-mesh?

Steve

[Les Henson]

Clamp the flexi pipe and then press the clutch pedal. If the pedal is solid, then the master is fine. If the internals of the flexi pipe were collapsed and acting as a one-way valve (backwards to the pedal), then you would be able to change gear, but the clutch would slip. If the valve was working in the opposite way, then it would crunch when changing gear and possibly the pipe would inflate noticeably when you press the pedal - it would also put strain on the master cylinder seals and I guess the pedal would be harder to press. Slave cylinders tend to either sieze up or leak. If you remove the slave while it's still connected to the system and remove the dust seal from the nose of it, then any fluid in there will mean it is failing. Initially - the seal will leak a small amount of fluid when the pedal is pressed, but also suck air in when you release - causing a spongy pedal.

Les.

[steve200TDi]

Ok, I clamped the flexi pipe and then pressed the clutch pedal - its solid, so I guess the master cylinder is fine.

Also, with some help, the flexi pipe is not balloon when you press the clutch pedal.

And this weekend I'll have a go at taking the slave out with the pipe still connected. Is the push rod going to be loose when I take it out, is it fixed inside the bell housing - so I cant loose it inside the bell housing!?

Is it advisable to take the exhaust sectoin out?

Quote from Les' slaver cylinder replacement:

"it should have little movement before you feel the system pressurise."

Mines definitely not like that, at the mo its over half the way down before you come to pressure!

But I still don't see how it can be leaking:

- the fluid level is at max

- there's no visible signs of leaking, and I took the wading plug out of the bell housing and no fluid leaked out.

- no leaks in the footwell.

Thanks for you help

Steve