Buying a Defender

[MarkL]

Hi there,

I've always loved Landrovers, but could never really afford one! That is until this year!

So now I'm looking at a Defender 110 County SW, a 2004 TD5.

So I would really appreciate any advice about the more common problems with TD5 engine, bodywork, chassis, etc.

Also are TD5s really that bad for overlanding compared to 300TDi .. in the long run I'd like to do some!! Maybe Africa! I've read conflicting stuff .. some people wouldn't touch a TD5 with a barge pole .. and others say that they're great!!

Anyway

Thnaks a million

Mark

[Scotian]

There is no way in this world you want to go to africa with a TD5. Get the 300 Tdi (I personally prefer a 200TDI since there is no silly ECU to go wrong) The 300TDI is capable of being repaired by some shanty town mechanic in Africa and will see you though for years of fun.

Please dont get a TD5.. but if you do bit the engine and fit a 200/300 TDI.

If you plan overland then you will want as few electrics that can go wrong as possible. Also the 300TDI is better on fuel than the TD5 although not quite as powerful. Its very easy to maintain the 300TDI yourself and you can tune up the power lots too.

[Escape]

The TD5 is a very good and reliable engine, don't let people scare you off.

I have one myself and am very happy with it, gives me enough power AND good economy.

Some guys I know have clocked 200.000 miles and more on their TD5s, without much problems. One friend regularly takes his to Africa, working as a photographer and doubling as assistance truck. Hasn't mentionned any difficulties and I know for a fact he works his car quite hard.

Also, since you say you're looking at a 2004 model (there were some changes in 2002, offering noticeable improvements), it would be quite a big step to get a 200 or 300tdi instead, being they are much older and with the miles usually come more problems as well.

Good luck with the hunt!

Filip

[Scotian]

No offence to Escape (he and is mate have obviously been very lucky with theirs, wish you the same luck as time goes on) but I dont think many people will agree with that choice. There are a few pros for the TD5 but I have never ever heard anyone recoment it over the 200/300TDi for going overland to far off places.

Also as far as overall condition of a newer landrover goes.. Its all down to the life it lead, also newer ones seem to have some poor parts/work on them causing them to age sooner than the early 90s ones.

I';ve got a 1985 (orinially petrol, now with a 200TDi Disco engine) Landrover 90 (Defender if you dont know what a 90 is) and it sails though the MOT ever year while much newer defenders are costing hundreds to get them though very often. The MOT guy I use now, when I first went to him he could belive it was a C Reg and was calling his mates over to come and look at how good it looks underneath..

[JST]

td5s and far off places in short get a tdi is something i always stood by but your now goign back 10yrs to get a tdi std vehicle (bar exports etc)

my last tow trips to Africa we had td5s supplied one with over 200k Kms on it the other only 98k Kms no problems with either and they were worked hard. also alot of other td5 out there now.

still harder to fix in the back end of beyond with engine trouble yes i agree but maybe you wont be stopping to fix other age related issues.

[Scotian]

I'm good friends with one of those old boy type one mand band mechanic garages in Scotland. His main thing is Landrovers but he caters for anything the local farmers throw at him.

I went there with some problem with my 200tdi (long time ago cant remember what it was) and he was short on advice for me. His reason for this is, he says, he knows the inside and out of a TD5 like the back of his hand becuase he is always fixing them becuase they are always causing trouble but he hardly ever has to open up a Tdi becuase they hardly ever go wrong.

In favor of the TD5 argument however, I didnt think of this till JST said it. The argument for TDi over TD5 is getting harder and harder to fight as time goes on becuase they the rest of the car is starting to get pretty old.

But I still maintain TDi over the TD5. its still not too late. I just wonder what we are going to do in 50 years time when we really need the reliability and solidness of a TDi but only silly computer driven engines anre electric everything cars are going around!! Its bad news.. so we best start preserving the old pre TD5 landovers so out children and childrens children have somthing they can go visit the desert in

If money was no obstical I would build a defender from scratch buying all new parts from the likes of paddock etc and fit a brand new 300Tdi in it. If I couldnt be bothered doing so much work I would buy a brand new defender, take the puma engine and all other un-needed electrics out, sell them and use the money to buy a new 300tdi engine..

I'll stop arguing now. sorry.. just somthing I'm really keen on

On the desert point.. I;ve driven thousands of miles in Oman and Iraq in both Landover wolfs (with 300Tdi engins) and modern ecu electric tastic Toyotas, suburbans, Nissans etc. Never broke down once with the Wolf but had never ending problems with the latter.

And even on that. Mates of mine who were in the Gulf war (first time round) Swear that the defender (we are talking 2.5 NA here) was rubbish compared to the SIII with 2.5 petrol engine and oil type air filter. It seems that as time goes on we just get less and less capable for driving in extream conditions. we should get back to basics.

[The Badger]

Buy a 07 110 CSW with Utility pack

and then take the engine out and put in a brand new 300tdi

I have an 07 90, and seriously considering this as the new 07 has even more electrics.

Also the new 07 does not take Bio-Diesel, considering that the EU has passed a law stating that by 2010 10% of fuel will be this, seams odd. Also the 300tdi can take this Veggie Oil

Fuel is becoming more scarce these days and will only get worse, make more sense to have an engine that can take it.

[MarkL]

Thanks for the advice so far .. clear as mud!!!

I think I'll go with the 2004 TD5 for now .. looks like a good deal .. less than 20k miles, one owner, Epsom Green .. and I reckon it's a school run machine!! Have to get a mech to check it out first though.

I'm in Ireland and 200/300 TDi's are not so common here. I'll go with a bit of The Badger's and Scotian's advice and switch the engine to a 300TDi when it's time to start wandering further afield!!!! I'll be sticking to Europe for at least the next 2-3 years!!

Any tips on what not to get stung with, when looking at Defenders! Common engine faults, chassis problems, bodywork problems .....

Anyway

Thanks again!

Mark

[stobbie]

Good choice! The TD5 is definately the best engine Land Rover has ever produced. I own a DII TD5 with over 200000 miles, it has to work very hard; about 65000 miles a year with a 3000kg trailer, and I don't pay attention to speed limits.

It doesn't use a drop of oil, the engine and gearboxes are like new! Never had any problems with this car. Also totaly dry on the underside of the car, not a drop of oil. All electrics also troublefree.

I also own a 2000 110CSW 300TDI. Also a good engine, but a lot less power, and less efficient on fuel. It has done 150000 miles, serviced religiously but the engine doesn't look as clean anymore as the TD5. Also had a lot of smaller problems, turbo, turbo hoses, some leaks, some small electric problems, but, except for the turbo, nothing major.

Another big plus for the TD5: No cambelt to worry about!

[Scotian]

Good choice! The TD5 is definately the best engine Land Rover has ever produced. I own a DII TD5 with over 200000 miles, it has to work very hard; about 65000 miles a year with a 3000kg trailer, and I don't pay attention to speed limits.

It doesn't use a drop of oil, the engine and gearboxes are like new! Never had any problems with this car. Also totaly dry on the underside of the car, not a drop of oil. All electrics also troublefree.

I also own a 2000 110CSW 300TDI. Also a good engine, but a lot less power, and less efficient on fuel. It has done 150000 miles, serviced religiously but the engine doesn't look as clean anymore as the TD5. Also had a lot of smaller problems, turbo, turbo hoses, some leaks, some small electric problems, but, except for the turbo, nothing major.

Another big plus for the TD5: No cambelt to worry about!

Thats got to be a first. Never ever heard anyone prais the TD5. Always heard people say the 200TDi is the best engine LR ever made. I cant decide between the 200 and 300 for various reasons.

[MINESAPINT]

I have no idea which engine you should go for, I have owned 200, 300 and now have a 2000 Td5. I just turn the key and they have always started.

What I do feel I can help with is the chassis & bodywork. I feel qualified to advise as mine currently needs about £3,000 spending on it to correct bodywork & chassis problems.

You must get the chassis Waxoyled every couple of years or so.

The rear crossmembers become very shabby very quickly. I am looking to have mine changed at the moment to a galvanised one.

The doors suffer very badly and mine needs all 3 replacing at a cost of £1000ish. I now realise what I should have done is Waxoyled the door inners when the vehicle was new.

Many of the screw & bolt heads are of unsuitable material. I have replaced mine with stainless steel.

The bumper on mine needs replacing as it is rusty.

The body is suffering generally which as far as I understand is as a result of galvanic corrosion.

The body cappings are well rusty. The series vehicles were fitted with galvanised cappings then Land Rover stopped galvanising them which has caused most Defender owners massive grief. I was informed the new 110's now have galvanised cappings again and the new replacement cappings available from Land Rover are now galvanised. I feel there should have been a recall regarding these cappings but instead they charge £300 for a new pair and that is only for the parts!

I understand from 2002 the rear door is uprated to take the weight of the spare wheel but on mine it has fallen to pieces and is catching the floor underneath.

I am so dissapointed with my vehicle I have considered having a series vehicle rebuilt onto a galvanised chassis with all parts galvanised but have not yet had the courage to take the plunge.

I do feel you can slow down corrosion by using Waxoyl on chassis, body & doors but the body cappings rust from inside as well so this is not so simple.

If I think of any other problems I will post again.

MINESAPINT

[Godlykepower]

Hey Mark,

I was in the exact same position as you last year.

I did not rush blindly into my purchase, but spent several months planning & asking questions. My intended use was that it would be my main vehicle (not used daily as I can walk to work), occasional greenlaning.....and ultimately, London to Cape Town.

I can not tell you how glad I am that I went down the 300TDi route.......I probably paid well over the odds, but mine is a fantastic example and I have had nothing major go wrong (a few minor electrical glitches & 1 minor coolant leak) and I am discovering that this engine is pretty much bombproof (not literally, you pedantic TD5 lot!!)

A TD5 may run smoother; but do you really want to go anywhere of substantial distance, and have that little worry in the back of your mind that something controlled by a computer is going to go wrong? That is the LAST thing you want on your mind in Africa.

With a 300TDi, you could almost literally get yourself out of trouble using Blu Tak & a wire coat hanger!

Now, I'm not saying that a TD5 is rubbish...far from it.....its just as wonderful as all Defenders, its just that I would always have that feeling in my head that I made the wrong choice. A 300 just feels more.....organic......when you drive it, you feel like your more involved mechanically for some reason.

Get a 300TDi.....spend the absolute maximum you can on one. You will NOT regret it.

[Happyoldgit]

Here we go again.

The fact is that anything mechanical or electrical can go wrong and I think the idea that an older engine can always be fixed with a bit of chewing gum and a bit of string beside some dirt track in the middle of nowhere is something of a fallacy. Let me tell you a secret ...the TD5 is not new, it's been around for years! Some people like 'em, some don't. Such is life, this has all been covered before.

[MarkL]

The body cappings are well rusty. The series vehicles were fitted with galvanised cappings then Land Rover stopped galvanising them which has caused most Defender owners massive grief. I was informed the new 110's now have galvanised cappings again and the new replacement cappings available from Land Rover are now galvanised. I feel there should have been a recall regarding these cappings but instead they charge £300 for a new pair and that is only for the parts!

Wow MINESAPINT .. that's taking the tiddle .. Defender's cost enough to buy you'd think LR would have the decency to galvinise the body cappings .. any idea when they started to supply galvinised cappings again, or is it just with Puma Defenders?

Godlykepower, thanks for the advice .. I'd seriously think about a 300TDi .. only problem is for me to get anything decent means a trip across to UK, paying VRT in Ireland etc .. but I understand what you say about the wrong decision in the back of mind!! I may have to bite the bullet and take the trip!!

Sorry Miserableolgit for looking for advice .. name suites ya!!!!

Thanks to all

Mark

[MarkL]

that's taking the tiddle ..

must some filter on .. taking the pi*s is what I meant!!!

[Gromit]

I'd seriously think about a 300TDi .. only problem is for me to get anything decent means a trip across to UK, paying VRT in Ireland etc

Hi Mark,

I'm just up the road from you, so if you need a hand looking at a few trucks, I'd be willing to call down and help out, if it suits with work etc. I've no experience with the TD5, but I've a fair knowledge of defenders.

There are 200 and 300 tdi trucks out there, you just need to hunt a bit more for them, than in the UK. My sister recently bought a 200tdi 110 and it's a great truck. Keep and eye on autotrader.ie and carzone.ie.

Also, if you haven't found them already, check out The Land Rover Club of Ireland

There's a guest forum there for non-members, if you want to post a Wanted for a truck. A few of them are on here too.

Hold out for the truck you want and you'll get it.

[MINESAPINT]

Mark,

I am not generally knowlegable ref Land Rovers, I have owned 7 over the last 25 years and can only pass on my experiences. Others on this forum are much more knowlegable and work on them daily, I hope someone will be along soon to make things clear.

As far as I am aware Land Rover stopped fitting Galv cappings in the 80's. Probably all 200's & 300's do not have galv cappings unless they have been swapped or galvanised by the owners. The cappings on my Td5 are a right mess. I am unaware if any of the Td5's were fitted with galv cappings. I am also unaware if all the new Puma's have galv cappings but was told at a dealership the other day the 110 I was looking at did have. I have vowed never to buy another new Land Rover, that is I suppose until some of the issues I have with the build quality have been addressed. However I cannot see me driving anything other than a 110 Hard Top (just suits my purpose) so as my vehicle continues to deteriorate before my eyes I have a dilemma. There are various routes I can take. Have a 109/110 rebuilt onto galv chassis. Put my defender in for the £3,000 facelift. Buy a new/ newish Puma providing I can positively establish massive improvements have been made to build quality. OR get used to driving a tatty looking vehicle.

Land Rover owners are very loyal and they seem to get some perverse satisfaction out of knowing come the weekend there will be a multitude of jobs at great expense to do to the "Land Rover" to keep it on the road. In some threads I have noted people pointing out their dissatisfaction as they bought a Toyota or Nissan and never need to do anything to them! Personally I would prefer a higher build quality & better choice of materials which would keep the vehicle performing & looking good without the need for all the maintainance.

MINESAPINT

[JST]

Sorry Miserableolgit for looking for advice .. name suites ya!!!!

Thanks to all

Mark

Mark, i think you have misread his intentions, the comments i didnt read as being aimed at you but the td5/tdi debate

[Escape]

No offence to Escape (he and is mate have obviously been very lucky with theirs, wish you the same luck as time goes on) but I dont think many people will agree with that choice. There are a few pros for the TD5 but I have never ever heard anyone recoment it over the 200/300TDi for going overland to far off places.

Also as far as overall condition of a newer landrover goes.. Its all down to the life it lead, also newer ones seem to have some poor parts/work on them causing them to age sooner than the early 90s ones.

I';ve got a 1985 (orinially petrol, now with a 200TDi Disco engine) Landrover 90 (Defender if you dont know what a 90 is) and it sails though the MOT ever year while much newer defenders are costing hundreds to get them though very often. The MOT guy I use now, when I first went to him he could belive it was a C Reg and was calling his mates over to come and look at how good it looks underneath..

No offence taken Scotian.

I can certainly understand why someone would prefer the Tdi for overlanding, but I don't think Mark will be rushing off to Africa next week. And for overall use, a TD5 seems the better choice to me, without discarding the option to go overlanding as well.

I also pointed out the age-argument (maybe not as clear as JST), which to me is an important factor when buying your first LR, especially with the intent of using it as a daily driver. That is the main reason I started with a new Defender but have since bought 2 older Range Rovers as I became confident doing most repair and rebuilding myself.

As others have pointed out, by the time you feel up to overlanding, you'll undoubtebly have to make some modifications, and can still decide on either a different base-vehicle or an engine-swap should you so desire.

Filip

[Scotian]

I still prefer the older landrover option. I dont know what I would do with all my free time if I wasnt fixing my landrover It would be terrible to have time to put my feet up and watch TV or somthing like that. Oh.. and I would hate not to have ingrained oil in my hands all the time

[Escape]

I still prefer the older landrover option. I dont know what I would do with all my free time if I wasnt fixing my landrover It would be terrible to have time to put my feet up and watch TV or somthing like that. Oh.. and I would hate not to have ingrained oil in my hands all the time

I can relate to that! So because the 90 TD5 was so reliable, I got a 1996 P38a to spent my free time on.

Then I got busy kitting out the 90 (still a work in progress), sold on the '96 Range and got a '95 one instead (actually, also a work in progress).

and if by some chance I'm not working on my own cars, there's always a mate coming over, in need of some help.

[Top90]

Wow MINESAPINT .. that's taking the tiddle .. Defender's cost enough to buy you'd think LR would have the decency to galvinise the body cappings .. any idea when they started to supply galvinised cappings again, or is it just with Puma Defenders?

Mark

I believe gavanised body cappings started again on the 02 plate late Td5 update... and then stopped again as my 55 plate did not have them.

I know a 300Tdi on an 05 plate that does have them though. ALthough I don't know if they continued that long or it's because it's ROW spec being a Tdi.

My puma does not have them.

[Happyoldgit]

Sorry Miserableolgit for looking for advice .. name suites ya!!!!

Thanks to all

Mark

Mark,

To be frank I would not want to see this thread become another dominated by the same old 300Tdi v TD5 arguments like so many others have done over the years. If the information was new then it would be a different matter but there is little that can be added to the engine discussion over and above information is already out there ...all you have to do is look for it it and then spend time sorting out hearsay and rumour from fact. As an aside I've personally owned several of both and given good and regular maintenance & servicing they have both proved to be reliable.

Thanks for the comment about the moniker but in the end it's only a screen name and something my wife calls me from time to time ....I'm a cuddly teddy bear really ...she calls me that too You are not the first to comment on it and I daresay won't be the last, stick around and you might get the chance to see another new member make the same crack BTW: welcome to LR4x4

[Top90]

As MOG said it's an argument that has been discussed several times, sometimes by people that have not owned both engine variants.

[Happyoldgit]

It seems that as time goes on we just get less and less capable for driving in extream conditions. we should get back to basics.

...like horses eh