Off the road AGAIN!!!

[Scotian]

I was just setting off on my way to Transilvania from Craiova (about 230 mile trip) when my engine failed!!

I was 42 miles into my trip, the engine was going sooo well. I even patted the 90 on the steering wheel saying "Good Lad!" becuase it was keeping its speed up hills in 5th gear, pullying away so nicely when over taking and sounding as smooth as ever it had been.

Then I was driving along a straight roman road, pulled out to over take a lorry (5th gear, 55mph), pulled in and then heard a horrible clanking from the engine. I pulled over instantly and then the engine stalled pretty quickly. Also I notice that the oil light was flickering just before it died. I started it again and it ticked over for a few seconds before stalling again.

I called a friend for some advice and he took me though some fault finding procedures sutch as taking the heater plugs out and cranking it. I did this and it would turn easily to a point then was all but jammed. So it seemed we are looking at a stuck pistion.

I then got a tow to the nearest fuel stop by a lorry. On the way there I put it in 4th gear and tried to bump start it.. it wouldnt but then I noticed that if I left it being pulled over in gear when I press the starter it would start and I een managed to move the 90 under its own steam to a safer place to park at the fuel station. Then it stalled again. Before it did, itwas ticking over very lumpy, rattly (comming from deep inside) and the engine was jumping about as if it wsa trying to get out the engine bay. Also there was a terrible smell of metal burning.

So now what do I do? I'm thousands of miles from the nerest replacement engine (my mate knows somone with a disco for sale for £300 and I have a spare 200tdi in the uk that could be a doner for parts). I can manage a straight swap out here for a disco 200tdi no problem but there is no way I've got the ability to strip this engine and replace the parts that need replacing.

Just now I'm kind like a rabbit blinded in the head lights, dont know what to do and my income this summer depends on the landrover running

[TheRecklessEngineer]

So sorry to hear that!

As your engine sounds like it is mostly scrap, how about popping the head off to take a look. You never know - might be repairable...

When you say you haven't got the ability to fix it, is that mechanical ability or a shortage of tools? I'm sure people on here with a much more intimate knowledge of the 200 TDi than I would be happy to talk you through it.

[Scotian]

If I take the head off what am I likely to see? What will I me looking for (if its not obvious). When I took the gloplugs out I noticed that 1 and 2 (starting from the bulkhead working forward) were looking fine with just the tip slightly coked up, 3 was covered in oil and 4 was coked up all the way to the thread.

I say I dont have the ability beacase the deapest I ever went into an engine is the rocker cover and any bolt ons such as fuel pump, turbo, pumps etc.

Also I dont have access to specialist tools (I just have a basic tool kit) and will have to do every thing in the carpark. What tools would I need to do somthing as big as changing pistons and cylinder linings? Also can it be done in the car or does the engine need to be removed?

[Jon W]

As you have done the disco engine into the 90 before everything is ready for it to be done, for you to drop the new disco engine in. I would just swap the engine out and then keep the old one to strip down and have a look at and learn how it works.

Sell parts of the disco you break. £300 for a disco is a good price and you should make money back on it.

Jon

[cipx2]

The symptoms look quite similar to when the cambelt jumps a couple of teeth or more.

I'd start with the simple things first:

- check the timing on the engine

- inspect under the rocker cover for broken rockers or shaft, bent push rods etc.

[Scotian]

Yeah. it is looking like the best option however, being in Romania it means £150ish for flight to UK, £300 for disco, £250ish for fuel back to Romania, £20 ferry plus £75ish for a new clutch (I dont think anyone would recomend an engine or gear box change without changing the clutch while you are there). I would use both axles from it, the transfer box and keep every usable part from the engine bay (break master cylinder, clutch master and slave, radiator etc etc..) and I think I would get around £100 for the scrap left over here as the scrap prices are very low.

Also I think I can get a "buy now pay later" gera box while in the UK from a friend so everything would be done at once and my 90 would be rather healthy after all the work was done.

I think I need to find £1000 and that will do everything including silly unforseens and the rental of some garage space for the use of a hoist and some other tools I dont have.

[TheRecklessEngineer]

If you can bolt on a fuel pump, you can do anything.

I do agree with cipx2, you should start checking simple things first - timing etc.

Just a thought...you might be able to persuade someone to drive a disco over for you to break...maybe even one with air-con and a decent clutch.

edit - don't forget if you are sticking in a new engine, it would be a good idea to change the cam belt whilst you're at it.

[Les Henson]

I think the timing belt too. Take the rocker cover off and look to see if any of the pushrods are bent.

Les.

[LandyManLuke]

ditto the above, looking at the pushrods will tell you more.

The belt on my 200tdi stripped about ten teeth, rather than snapping. it bent all 8 pushrods.

[Les Henson]

Mr Murphy managed to bend all 8 of them too

Les

[JimAttrill]

You could sell that to the Tate gallery

[Scotian]

Right. I've just spend the last 5 hours looking at it. From other advice that I had on the phone when I suggested timing belt, I was told that it doesnt sound anything like that (I may have given him more detail and answered more questions so I'm not being dismissive oof your suggestions, it was the first thing I thought of too). Rocker cover off and push rods out, all perfect not the slightest kink.

Then I took the head off. Looking at it you would have thought it was brand new. Head gasgit in perfect condition, Head was looking very healthy other than a little bit coked up but what else would you expect....

All cylinder linings in perfect condition. Tops of all pistons perfect too.

When turning the engine (starter manages to turn it about 5mm of piston travel for every time you pusht he button but by hand with all my strength and weight I can turn it), when the two middle pistons are down the engine turns ok but when they are on their way up it gets really hard to turn. Also I noticed that the second piston from the front is not sitting straight. See the picture, the top of the picture is toward the front of the engine.

My phone advice suggested that it could be somthing to do with the big end on that piston or a bearing.. I dont know what it looks like in there so I didnt understand exactly.

Does this give any more clues to the problem?

[Les Henson]

Valves have hit the piston crown on No2, so big end or small end has let go for some reason. Drop the sump and you will most likely see the problem.

Les.

[Scotian]

Will I see anything from under with the sump off without taking the engine out? Somone told me today there is no more work I can do on it without taking the engine out, if thats not the case that wouldbe great. I have a spare 200tdi at home in the UK with just a split piston sumber 4 ring and scored cylinder that I could have parts sent out from, is that feasable?

It would be great if I could DIY fix this out here in the next couple of weeks then get out to work in the hills.

[western]

possibly a broken conrod or bigend cap bolts have sheared/come undone & are jamming the crankshaft from turning.

drop the oil & sump off & you'll be able to see if the oilpump/crank/mains/bigends/conrods are intact.

[cipx2]

Marcus, have a look at this: http://forums.lr4x4.com/index.php?showtopic=11960

[Scotian]

Thanks. That lends hope to me actually fixing this here rather than buying a 1992 disco as a donar. I will report back tonight or tomrrow with pics and info from taking the sump off.

[Scotian]

I've taken the sump off. Couldnt see much becuase the oil pick up assy was in the way and I now see there is another part that comes off the bottom wihc would give me better vis. I will do that tomorrow.

Only problem is I cant get the oil pick up assy off becuase the 2 10mm bolts are just rounding, as with most other 10mm bolts on the engine (sump bolts, water pump, power steering pump) What is is with those bolts? they seem to be made of chocolate. I've rounded so many off with a proper 10mm socket and had to resort to hammering the slightly smaller imperial equivilent to 10mm and getting them off with that. With the oil pick up I cant get my little spanner in there to do that kind of jiggery pokery with it.

Anyway, I can see that I can take off part of the assy that will allow me to drop the remains of the sump and see better. Will do that tomorrow (subject to more chocolate bolts).

I could see the big ends but I cant see any damage, no debris in the sump either. Any ideas or will I need to wait till tomorrow when I take the rest of the sump off?

[Bull Bar Cowboy]

The low oil pressure may have been caused by the far end cam bearing moving rearwards (a common problem on 200’s) …………………

Although as Les correctly say’s……………. No2 has had an interference contact, so I would guess that the push rods will be bent to some degree……………..

A worn big end / little end will not cause this problem, so you should hve seen something really obvious when removing the sump ……………

I would guess you may have had an issue with the cam bearings and it locked the cam just momentarily …………… maybe enough to slip a tooth or two ……………..

Ian

[orange rover]

as it happens, other than a complete aircon system i also have a complete 200tdi from a defender lying around. so one more reason to come and visit. head gasket is gone on that engine, but other than that it was running before i took it out. turbo would prop neeed replacement, fins are not too good.

i'm in romania the week from 17 mai, but taking part in a competition and no space in the 90 to bring it unfortunately.

cheers spec

[Chris Rogers]

can always get a TD5 engine and wack that in.... we all know how much you love it!

[orange rover]

can always get a TD5 engine and wack that in.... we all know how much you love it!

i just did that - thats why i have the 200 tdi lying around

[cipx2]

I just had the time to look more closely to the 1st 3 pics in the thread and now I see that the #2 piston has hit the cylinder head, not the valves

Here's the blowup on #2 and #3:

And now here's what I see:

- the cylinder head should have looked at #2 cylinder same as at #3 (and 1 and 4), with a nice more or less uniform carbon buildup (green arrows), but it doesn't

- it's easy too see the carbon buildup is missing from the #2 cylinder (red arrows) with the exception of the area corresponding to the chamber in the piston (yellow arrows marking the contour).

So, for one reason, you have a longer manifold+conrod+piston assembly that is supposed to. Since I can't imagine what could have happened to the manifold/cranckshaft the only thoughts are that maybe the bigend nuts loosened (you say they're ok) or the piston got partially fractured.

P.S. The black round marks on the #2 piston are the areas where the carbon deposits remained intact, the rest of area got cleaned as a result of the impact with the cylinder head.

Disclaimer: this is my 2c; after working 12h on a Sunday I might not see or think right ...

[Scotian]

Thanks for the offer of the engine but I'm having slight financial difficulties right now. Back in the UK I have a 200tdi sat in a garage with nothing wrong with it other than No4 piston ring broken. I can have bits of it sent over to fix this maybe?

Is it simple enough to just get the full number 2 piston sent over and replace it?

Also what could have casued this to happen? Over heating? Over revving? or is it just a freak happening that isnt likley to happen again?

As for the bent rods, I will look again (and take a pic) tomorrow but they all look totally straight to me. I couldnt get a very good look at the big end but from what I could see it was secure. I also put a screw driver in there and levered it a bit to see if I could make anything wobble and it was solid. Tomorrow I will take the rest of the sump off and get better pics and maybe even remove it if I can work out how (I'll go back to that thread that was put on here for me to see)

Oh, Chris.. you're about as funny as VD

[western]

find a good flat work surface [table will do] & roll the push rods along you'll soon spot if any are bent