Throttle Problems

[AJL]

Hi has anyone seen, herd of or experienced similar?

For sometime now my 110 has had a strange throttle response on pulling away heres the symptoms

slight slope first gear high box i often need to slip the clutch to pull away this happens usually when the vehicle is either cold or has been standing. The other strange thing is if i dont slip the clutch i can pull away without stalling not using the accellerator. The vehicle pulls away at a crawl even uphill. If after doing this i apply throttle it has been known (or was the other day) for me to be able to put my foot to the floor with the throttle without result. 3 seconds later theres then a massive fuel surge and off i go. In some Situations on say a really steep hill i've had to engage low box to pull away!

This also sometimes happens when i'm in reverse when cold in the morning. But less so.

the vehicle does this with egr valve blocked off or in standard mode and also with or without the clutch sensor connected.

The vehicle has had an Allisport cooler and chip fitted 2 years ago

no other throttle or engine related problems.

comments most welcome

[BogMonster]

We've got a very early 1999 Td5 110 at work, and I have seen it do a similar thing on odd occasions and thinking about it I think it's always been when the vehicle is cold first thing in the morning, but it's never been a big problem so I've never really taken much notice of it - I don't drive that vehicle very often and nobody else has complained about it so it is currently filed in the "I have far more important things to worry about" category

The ability to do hill starts without touching the accelerator is quite normal, they should be able to do that as the "electronic governor" seems to add fuel to maintain idle speed under any load as far as it can, so once the engine is warm you can actually do quite steep hill starts in a Td5 without touching the pedal, as long as you let the clutch out very slowly so as not to overcome the inertia of the engine and stall it. But it should go when you press the accelerator

I don't know - maybe it's just a "Td5 thing" - they seem to have some odd habits!

Might be worth getting things like the airflow meter checked out to make sure that is OK, it can cause some odd problems if that is playing up though there usually seems to be power loss associated with AFM problems.

[AJL]

I was wondering if it could be anything to do with the throttle potentiometer (SP?)

[Kev Baldwin]

I was wondering if it could be anything to do with the throttle potentiometer (SP?)

Land Rover had anti-stall software added to the Defender Td5 ECU to counter the common customer complaint of stalling when setting off or when low speed manouvering. The symptoms you describe sound pretty normal. Land Rover actually advocates the foot - off the throttle pedal technique for pulling away and for slow speed off-road work. Demonstrating this feature is the Land Rover Experience instructors party trick.

Trouble is as soon as you touch the throttle, the anti-stall is cancelled. So if you drive it as normal with your foot on the throttle, the Td5 will stall too easy like it always did.

Kev

Edited January 10, 2006 by Kev Baldwin

[AJL]

hi kev

After a couple of years living with the LR throttle nonsense i've got used to starting off without stalling it.

However it doesnt excuse having to sometimes rev the B*****ks off it and slip the clutch to pull away sometimes on a hill it seems like i'm trying to do a standing hill start with a 3 tonne trailor!

[ihana]

hi kev

After a couple of years living with the LR throttle nonsense i've got used to starting off without stalling it.

However it doesnt excuse having to sometimes rev the B*****ks off it and slip the clutch to pull away sometimes on a hill it seems like i'm trying to do a standing hill start with a 3 tonne trailor!

Mines the same - a 1999 Td5 130. Getting out of the garage under where I live I have to go up a 30 degree short slope and race the stupid electric garage door which will try and close on me. Door to landy roof clearance is about 10mm. If I give it gas and slip the clutch it'll go up but it'll equally go up with no throttle.

However, if I start going up on no throttle and have to speed up suddenly due to the daft door then it

will try and stall!

Got clutch disconnected, EGR removed, no chips or 'coolers.

Tom

[AJL]

[i'm not alone then with this problem do you have to slip the clutch to pull away sometimes?

i've driven older and newer td5's (90's) and they dont seem to suffer from the same trouble even wearing Simex

[BogMonster]

Nice title James

[AJL]

[John_T]

There was a problem with the ECU on some early TD5s. It caused stalling and "kangerooing" problems and was the subject of a LR technical bulletin and warranty job. The cure was to fit a new ECU. As noted in the above pots the later versions did not suffer with this problem.

You can check with LR to see if yours has been "done" under warranty. If not it is probably too late but worth a punt.

John

[AJL]

There was a problem with the ECU on some early TD5s. It caused stalling and "kangerooing" problems and was the subject of a LR technical bulletin and warranty job. The cure was to fit a new ECU. As noted in the above pots the later versions did not suffer with this problem.

You can check with LR to see if yours has been "done" under warranty. If not it is probably too late but worth a punt.

John

Hi John Thanks for this pitty i didnt know in september just before my LR warranty ran out! Mines a late 02 model

What sort of price is a new ECU then?

[BogMonster]

FWIW if I had an early Td5 I'd keep the original ECU. I have driven a wide range of Td5s from one in the first 200 of production, to 2005 model ones, and the oldest ones are the best, and the ones that have never had the ECU's swapped are the best of the lot.

The two best ones I have ever driven were the one which was right at the start of the Td5 vin range, and one built very shortly after that. They go like **** off a shovel, a bit jerky yes, but far more get up and go than later ones. Any of the post 2002 ones feel completely dead in comparison IMHO, yes they are smoother to drive but they are nowhere near as zippy, no idea what LR did to them but it had some side-effects! The later engines just seem lazy on acceleration in the lower gears.

[BogMonster]

James yours will not be one covered by the service action, it was only on the v early ones perhaps 99/00 models, can't remember exactly but not an 02 anyway if yours has the new dash (can't remember?)

[AJL]

Stephen

i've only driven two others both 90 truck cabs one older than mine and an 05 model the 05 model is far faster in std. mode than mine chipped and intercooled it seems to have a louder more 'spinny' turbo

[Happyoldgit]

Hi John Thanks for this pitty i didnt know in september just before my LR warranty ran out! Mines a late 02 model

What sort of price is a new ECU then?

Yes but yours isn't an early model is it - a late '02 will have the anti stall anyway.

[AJL]

Yes but yours isn't an early model is it - a late '02 will have the anti stall anyway.

Thanks Mog doesnt alter the problem though

i recon its one of 3 things airflow meter etronic throttle assembly or ECU anyone else suggest different or what to check? was thinking of going to someone who has a testbook but can that really solve anything?

I presume it'd just throw egr errors untill reset and egr valve put back to std.

[Petergg]

The Cost of a new ECU that is programmable is £100.00 off ebay, I have a 2001 TD5 which is chipped and was carp prior to this being done, also have every other mod done to make go faster/better.

You could try and swap parts like the air flow meter with another to see if it's better rather than by one also check flywheel sensor, and oil on injector wires to ECU.

Peter

[AJL]

The Cost of a new ECU that is programmable is £100.00 off ebay, I have a 2001 TD5 which is chipped and was carp prior to this being done, also have every other mod done to make go faster/better.

You could try and swap parts like the air flow meter with another to see if it's better rather than by one also check flywheel sensor, and oil on injector wires to ECU.

Peter

ok thanks Peter food for thought anyway for £100 that cant hurt to try plus i've always got a spare incase i dunk it!

One other thing i'd forgotten about i've removed the centre silencer to a straight through pipe i wonder if less exhaust back pressure could be makeing this worse also i suppose it could be a dodgy lambdner sensor if there is one in the downpipe/manifold

[SteveG]

James, Peter, Stephen and John T - How doesyou centre box stand up to abuse off-road?? It looks quite low and vulnerable on mine. I was thinking of changing it for a straight through pipe ifit does get bashed about toomuch. How much are these pipes??

Cheers

Steve

ok thanks Peter food for thought anyway for £100 that cant hurt to try plus i've always got a spare incase i dunk it!

One other thing i'd forgotten about i've removed the centre silencer to a straight through pipe i wonder if less exhaust back pressure could be makeing this worse also i suppose it could be a dodgy lambdner sensor if there is one in the downpipe/manifold

[Petergg]

James, Peter, Stephen and John T - How doesyou centre box stand up to abuse off-road?? It looks quite low and vulnerable on mine. I was thinking of changing it for a straight through pipe ifit does get bashed about toomuch. How much are these pipes??

Cheers

Steve

Steve,

I have the Twisted Performance Gale Force Kit Fitted, so have no Center Box. Sounds great and I am sure it improved engine breathing, I also have no EGR and a pipercross filter system.

Peter

[honitonhobbit]

hi kev

After a couple of years living with the LR throttle nonsense i've got used to starting off without stalling it.

However it doesnt excuse having to sometimes rev the B*****ks off it and slip the clutch to pull away sometimes on a hill it seems like i'm trying to do a standing hill start with a 3 tonne trailor!

Kev is right BUT if you are having to do that on a hill you have an EMS fault. You should be able to pull away on a 1in6 with no throttle thanks to the anti-stall. In low you should be able to pull away in first on a 45 degree slope with a full load with no throttle.

I will have a look in the unofficial TD5 faults book tomorrow.

BTW Kev if you read this can you ring me

[John_T]

I have a straight through ipe as well. I fiited it to get round the problem of the centre box fouling the overdrive.

If you have an EGR blanking plate on a TD5 it can cause the ECU to show an air flow meter fault code and ignore the meter signals. This may cause a fuel consumption issue but it should not cause carp running......or could it???????

[BogMonster]

James, Peter, Stephen and John T - How doesyou centre box stand up to abuse off-road?? It looks quite low and vulnerable on mine. I was thinking of changing it for a straight through pipe ifit does get bashed about toomuch. How much are these pipes??

Cheers

Steve

I had a few dents in the old one but to be honest, apart from on top of the odd mountains where space for manoeuvring is quite restricted, rocks aren't really the main problem here - and if you belly it out in swampy ground it is far too soft to do any real damage and it just drags through the peat.

Also I don't know if you did what I did but have you looked underneath...?

I was thinking maybe a straight through middle pipe for my new one, and was just about to look into prices and ordering one when I looked underneath mine for something else and noticed that the new 300Tdi 90s don't have a rear silencer, only the middle one...

Doh....

Not sure about the Td5 90s, have you checked? My old Tdi 90 had a rear box but the new one doesn't because of the fuel tank!

John_T I have blanked off several EGR systems and to the best of my knowledge the only fault normally stored is with the EGR system on the ones I have done, no running problems. Td5s create airflow faults, injector faults, wiring faults, sensor fault, kitchen sink faults, and anything else you can think of but it doesn't mean there is anything wrong. I was looking at one today which had 13 different fault codes stored and there was actually nothing wrong with it.... I think they suffer a little from hypochondria

However a genuine airflow meter fault can produce a massive power loss, I have seen two with this fault in the last six months or so, dodgy readings from the airflow meter produced a big loss of power but no fault code, it was only picked up with a voltmeter and swapping in another AFM.

To give some idea of the reliability of Td5 fault codes the early ones all stored a fault code saying the tacho (rev counter) drive was faulty. Td5 Defenders ain't ever had a tacho....

[SteveG]

Yeah I have had a look, several in fact Yes the TD5 has two boxes, there's also a small one right at the rear. Plenty of people have done this in uk, so I know it's ok re noise reqs etc - you can just hear a turbo whistle really.

Lots of people like that, me I can't be arsed - would just do it if the centre box gets smashed around too much.

Cheers for the responses, sorry for Hi-jacking thread

Steve

[AJL]

Steve i ditched the centre box infavour of a straight through pipe as it runs slightly higher between the chassis rails and with a 110 my break over angle causes hookup on the mid silenser (much less so on a 90) re the noise to be honnest i havnt noticed any difference , probably due to the fact that i was running simex before and after the changeover. if i remember correctly it was made to fit by a company in exeter save on tyres for about £50