Josh Posted October 20, 2008 Share Posted October 20, 2008 Hi all, Im running a 300tdi 96 disco with a 2" lift. The extra ride height is good off road but the articulation isnt brilliant. Its lifted with bearmach heavy duty springs and pro comp es9000 shocks, with roll bars removed. I saw the scorpion evolution kit in a landy mag and i have a few questions. 1) From what i can gather the kit moves the shock mounts down 2 inches and replaces the bump stops with extended poly stops (front and rear). So where does the extra articualtion come from? 2) Will i see a big enough improvement to justify buying it. 3) Anyone with experience fitting/using this kit please let me know what its like..good or bad. Cheers Josh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
upnover4x4 Posted October 20, 2008 Share Posted October 20, 2008 Could probably do with fitting longer dampers. What length are yours? Save you money by spending wisely & listening to what others have to say. Scorpions not the cheapest & certainly not the best route. Gwyn lewis suspension (gwyn lewis )cant be recommended highly enough I feel & others here will agree. If you give him a ring he will listen to what you have fitted & advise you on the best compromise without ripping you off. Llama4x4 (llama4x4)also does gwyns kit but using rough country dampers. Good luck Im in process of sorting my disco out so will be interested in you choices/outcome. Adrian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Posted October 20, 2008 Author Share Posted October 20, 2008 Thanks for the quick reply Adrian. My dampers are +2", is this enough?i dont know?????. I have just been looking on a few websites (thanks for suggesting a couple more), paddocks make front and rear lowered shock mounts. Trailing arms are pretty cheap on ebay too. I think that it could be much cheaper to comprise my own kit from several sources. Josh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hybrid_From_Hell Posted October 20, 2008 Share Posted October 20, 2008 Josh Suspension tuning is something many here have done, in differing ways, some with off the shelf parts some with heavy fabrication skills, some in between, all have achived differing results and you need to try and think exactly what you are trying to achive. You could do worse than read the forum, do a search on Suspension, note interesting threads and study and see what other have done and formulate a plan as to what you like the idea of. In simple terms the more axle movent you get the harder it gets, and in my very humble opinion there is little points having HUGE rear axle flex and then sod all on the front, the answer is to aim for a balanced travel front and rear, and also to have it do it in a way you are happy with. There is also little point in having massive droop, but no compression /upward movement, add loads of lift to a truck and that can effect COG, no lift may mean body clearance probs, its not an easy solution ... I would also suggest you do a search on 'scrapiron' here too - then you decide if thats money of yours 'well spent'. Do loads of research and learn, you'll be stunned as to how much there is here to read and study, formualte ideas chose bits here and there and take your time, don't try to get everything you want in one hit, think it through, but 1st ask yourself WHY do you wnat more travel, for what purpose, what is importnant to you about it, what are you prepared to compromise on too as there is no perfect solution Consider actually getting your truck weighted at a weigh bridge and then look to see what springs might be better poundages and lengths, again there is a raft of info and knowledge here if you go look and then ask detailed Qs Nige Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluespanner Posted October 21, 2008 Share Posted October 21, 2008 LOWERING shock mounts is a stupid idea. What you want is to RAISE shock mounts and use much longer dampers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted October 21, 2008 Share Posted October 21, 2008 ...and +2" shocks with lowered mounts is a recipe for something breaking Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Posted October 21, 2008 Author Share Posted October 21, 2008 Thanks for the advice everyone. I can see now that the +2" shocks are going to be overstretched. Where can i find longer shocks? done a google search but i cant find any over 2". thanks Josh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hybrid_From_Hell Posted October 21, 2008 Share Posted October 21, 2008 Pro comp do plus 2 3 4 and 5 inch both pin pin (rea) and loop pin (front). but there much more you'll need to read up on 1st Nige Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dangerous doug Posted October 21, 2008 Share Posted October 21, 2008 shame on you for considering the orange carp!!!!!!!! try gwyn lewis 4x4 or llama4x4 . i got the rough country dampers +5"....as do many other people on this forum. there ok for articulation and there £50 a corner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Posted October 24, 2008 Author Share Posted October 24, 2008 Thanks for the further replies! Being a slight novice to suspension its alot to take onboard. I didnt realsie how many implications there would be. I have done a search on lowered shock mounts on here and the defender forum. The general consensus is that longer shocks are the best way to go. I have only had my shocks a couple of months so getting rid of them isnt really a justfiable option. Most people who have fitted the lowered mounts say that they have had no problems with the shock topping due to the extended bump stops and that there is defininatley increased extra articluation. But is it worth spending 100quid and lowering the shock mounts or sticking with what iv got and saving up for longer shocks? Josh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Posted October 24, 2008 Author Share Posted October 24, 2008 Thanks for the further replies! Being a slight novice to suspension its alot to take onboard. I didnt realsie how many implications there would be. I have done a search on lowered shock mounts on here and the defender forum. The general consensus is that longer shocks are the best way to go. I have only had my shocks a couple of months so getting rid of them isnt really a justfiable option. Most people who have fitted the lowered mounts say that they have had no problems with the shock topping due to the extended bump stops and that there is defininatley increased extra articluation. But is it worth spending 100quid and lowering the shock mounts or sticking with what iv got and saving up for longer shocks? Josh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orange Posted October 24, 2008 Share Posted October 24, 2008 How much have you used the vehicle in it's current state? What do you use it for? There is definitely an argument for the saving option as it gives you more time to play and find out what changes need to be made. It also gives you more time to research your options to make sure you get what you want without having to do exactly the same again in 6 months time... Just a couple of pennies for the pot... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Posted October 24, 2008 Author Share Posted October 24, 2008 Hi orange, The vehicle is my daily run around and iv been using it with the lift for about 2 months. I use it for either greenlaning and pay and plays most weekends. It would seem to make more sense to buy once and buy right. maybe im just too eager! Josh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Orange Posted October 24, 2008 Share Posted October 24, 2008 ...buy once and buy right... AMEN! Another suggestion is to get out and look. Park the vehicle in a stable, but articulated position and get out to have a good look around it to see where the movement is and how much more you think you need. Alternatively, get a well trusted friend to drive over a few obstacles with you outside of the vehicle so you can see what actually happens to your suspension at the moment. I know it's a risk - I only have 2 people I would trust to do this!! Mark (mod on here) had this issue with his D1. When we parked it up a loading ramp at a play-day and actually looked, the rear had plenty of movement up and down, but the front didn't. It may only be one end of the vehicle you need to change in order for the whole set-up to 'feel' and work better... HTH Adrian Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DiscoStu Posted October 24, 2008 Share Posted October 24, 2008 Hi Josh. Reading through this post I feel that the above advice, taking a look from the outside of the vehicle, is a really good idea. I have a similar set up to you, +2" springs and +2" pro-comps. I've recently had to change the front dampers after just 14 months so I'm not overly impressed with them. This time round I've got britpart super gaz and from the moment they went on they transformed the truck. They are standard length but I plan to fit some lowered turrets to compensate. So far, I've been happy with the amount of articulation I can achieve on the rear. I use my truck as my everyday car, for green laning and RTV trails - it holds its own. I have dislocation cones on the rear and need them, I regularly get two or three inches of space between the top of the spring and the seat. Not masses as compared to they gwyn lewis setup but are you getting this amount? Springs and shocks are one thing but if your A frame ball joint, suspension bushes and trailing arms are limiting your travel the longest shocks in the world wont help. You need to get it articulated somewhere stable and see what you're getting from your current set up. My guess would be that back is much better than the front. The front end is stiffer by design, radius arm bush flex cant compete with the articulation of the rear axle trailing arm mounts. There are options available, cranked arms, rose joints etc but your standard front prop UJ's will probably destroy themselves on full articulation. Each mod leads to another eh? Overriding all of this is why do you think you need more articulation? Best of luck, Stu. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Posted October 25, 2008 Author Share Posted October 25, 2008 Thanks for yet more good feedback guys! In regard to getting a good view from the outside i have tried this. I have yet to trust anyone to drive it off road with out me onboard!But........... My uncle has a plant trailer so me and my cousin often have twist offs up the ramps. He has a RRC with a 1" lift (+2" pro comps) and running 235/70/r16 muds. He gets always gets a bit further than me and keeps all wheels on the ground and his springs dislocate at the rear (he has rear cones and standard trailing arms). Whereas me........... ...........im running slightly larger tyres (245/75r16 - 1.5" taller than standard). I always lift the rear wheel closest to the ramp and my spring hasnt even dislocated, theres still room for the opposite wheel to go into the arch and its hasnt hit the bump stop. The trailing arms dont look stretched either. Is it wrong of me to think that the springs should dislocate? Thanks Josh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Posted October 25, 2008 Author Share Posted October 25, 2008 Sorry stu i didnt answer your question....... I think i need more articulation because i have seen discos with the exact set up as mine gain much more articulation with larger tyres on. To me that doesnt make sense and makes me think something isnt quite right. I have found a pic that was taken just after i had fitted the lift kit. It shows the disco at full rear articulation.....from there i rolled forward a bit and the d/s rear wheel wasnt touching the floor. Josh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DiscoStu Posted October 25, 2008 Share Posted October 25, 2008 You're right mate, somthings not doing its job properly. If you have Bearmach +2 springs (there not that much longer than standard length, just compress less for a given weight), they should be dislocating on full shock travel. Are you sure your shocks are +2, did the supplier make a mistake I wonder? Get it on the twist off ramp and take a photo. Thats not quite at my maximum, maybe another inch possible. My set up is the same except on britpart springs. Stu. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Posted October 25, 2008 Author Share Posted October 25, 2008 You could be right about having the wrong shock length. Does anyone know what length a +2" pro comp shock should be extended? I will try get some photos on the twist off ramp next time im at my uncles! Stu are you using standard trailing arms too?i get nowhere near than kind of twist. Cheers Josh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DiscoStu Posted October 25, 2008 Share Posted October 25, 2008 You could be right about having the wrong shock length. Does anyone know what length a +2" pro comp shock should be extended?I will try get some photos on the twist off ramp next time im at my uncles! Stu are you using standard trailing arms too?i get nowhere near than kind of twist. Cheers Josh The arms are standard, the bushes are all polybushes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Posted October 25, 2008 Author Share Posted October 25, 2008 Well iv just been and checked the pro comp shock length up to the land rover shock i took off and their exactly the same length! So it would seem that you were right stu and i have been supplied the wrong shock. Im surprised they havent blown up to be honest. No anti roll bars and i have given them some punishment. So i will be ringing MM4x4 on monday to get the right shocks. Josh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DiscoStu Posted October 25, 2008 Share Posted October 25, 2008 Glad I guessed right Josh, probably a first. Good luck getting them swapped, MM have been ok with me in the past, if your invoice states +2" they can't really moan can they? Stu. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clbarclay Posted October 25, 2008 Share Posted October 25, 2008 Was it this kit you bough from them? http://www.mm-4x4.com/spring-lift-kit---2-...d-uk-2619-p.asp Read it carefully, it actually it doesn make any referance to the length of the dampers. If this is the case then fear not, your cirtainly not the first to be fooled by that advertising and probably not the last either. Don't get me started on them, but in a nut shell I find them rather poor at selling you what you "actually want" and dealing with problems. I hope that you get on better dealing with them than I did with a similar problem. Procomp dampers are universal units with a choice of universal mounts welded on the ends. Procomp don't make a specific +2" damper for land rovers as such. Generally the +2" refers to the extended length of the damper as this sounds better than +1" travel/compressed length though its best if before you buy you get a definative answer from the seller as to whether its extended, travel or compressed length they are selling it by if you can. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Josh Posted October 25, 2008 Author Share Posted October 25, 2008 Yeah thats the kit i bought. I was expecting yellow springs and yellow shock boots but when the kit arrived they were blue bearmach springs and black shock boots. Im worried now that when i ring on monday they might just tell me that they are the right shocks. If there is no specified length in the description then they can say i have the right ones. Hopefully though they will see reason. You can sell a 2" lift with standard shocks surely? Josh Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
clbarclay Posted October 25, 2008 Share Posted October 25, 2008 Yes the description of the springs is more vague than the dampers. I ran +2" springs with standard length dampers for a while quite happily and it was only when I got another 4x4 and started a fresh on the suspension that I got longer dampers. The benefit is you don't have to worry about brake lines or bumpstops. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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