Series Diesel Smoking

[sotal]

I've just started using my Series 2a again after it's been laid up with a couple of issues for the past 5 months or so.

I really enjoy driving it and would do more if it wasn't for two issues - smoke and leaving oil behind! I know what the oil is and will sort that one day.

I've tried all sorts with the smoke and ruled various things out due to tests etc but have now run out of things to try so I wanted to uncomplicate things and start right back at the beginning without influencing my own decisions on what I've already done.

So if I can give a basic description of what is going on can you give a basic guide of where to start, and I'll try again from the beginning.

It's a replacement engine and gearbox from a Series 3 5mb.

It starts really well but always needs glow plugs. I used it the other day after 5 months of not being started, I put the glow plugs on, counted to 60, and she fired straight up, small cloud of whitish grey smoke then idled with no smoke. After driving for 30 minutes it was up to temperature, I pulled up at my destination and switched off the engine - I then realised I need to move it so I went to start it again and just turned they key. It turned over really slowly like it had got a dead battery, I turned they key back then put the glow plugs on and counted to 30 - it then fired up perfectly.

It idles with no smoke at all on a slightly fast idle (set by moving the hand throttle up) if I reduce the hand throttle to lower the speed it idles at then it can ran a little rough and every so often it has a little hiccup and a small cloud of smoke comes out of the exhaust.

Whilst driving I can drive along flat roads with barely any smoke, but give me a hill and it'll get a good cloud going. I can drive at about 1/4 throttle with no real smoke even up hill but you can feel a change in engine note and suddenly the clouds appear. The smoke is dark like unburnt diesel. It looks a browny sort of colour. Often if I don't need to accelerate up a hill I can keep the speed going without much smoke (as long as the hill isn't too long or steep).

As I say heavy throttle especially on hills causes big clouds, I sort of mentioned that the rest of the time there is no real smoke - by this I mean it wouldn't bother me, but to explain what I get - it is a foot or so in a straight line out of the exhaust again in the browny/black sort of colour - it gets faded towards the end - it looks like a straight line not a cloud but is visible. From this point if I put much more throttle on you get big clouds.

It's been like this for a while and I've learnt to drive round it most of the time, but there are two local hills I can't avoid and it gets embarrassing (I live at the top of one of the hills!). It passes it's MOT each time as it is a visual inspection at idle due to it's age - so often gets comments on how good it is!

As I say I have done a lot but would appreciate a list of things to check in the most logical order - I don't mind doing things again. I have simplified a few things which caused problems themselves (removed snorkel, removed butteryfly brake system)

Many thanks

[Snagger]

I'd wash the air filter in petrol, dry it and refil with clean oil (be careful not ot overfill it), check the valve clearances and slightly retard the injection timing. Check the fuel system for contamination - if it has stood for a while, it may have water or fungus, and replacing the fuel filter will help.

[David Sparkes]

"... driving for 30 minutes ... went to start it again and just turned they key. It turned over really slowly like it had got a dead battery, I turned they key back then put the glow plugs on and counted to 30 - it then fired up perfectly."

To me this suggests either an internal battery problem, or a connection problem, battery or engine / chassis earth connections. The relatively heavy current consumption of the glow plugs is breaking down a high resistance joint, enabling the much heavier starter motor current to flow.

"It idles with no smoke at all on a slightly fast idle (set by moving the hand throttle up) if I reduce the hand throttle to lower the speed it idles at then it can ran a little rough and every so often it has a little hiccup and a small cloud of smoke comes out of the exhaust."

I suggest this could be a separate problem to the smoke under load. BUT, if it turns out to have the same cause it's probably easier to use these symptoms to guide the fix rather than the 'heavy load' symptoms.

I suggest you drain the water trap on the fuel filter (if it has a separate water filter), then retest.

If this cures it, or you don't have a water trap, then change the filter.

I think the 'little hiccup' is water going through the fuel system, the smoke is fuel that didn't burn because of the water. I'm equating the little hiccup to a misfire on a petrol engine.

Smoke under load.

How long since the injectors were changed / checked?

I appreciate that finding somewhere you can trust is difficult, but I suggest you go round your local contacts and see who is suggested. I've been told that within about 20 miles of me is a place that has a test rig on the counter, so Customers can see the spray pattern the injectors produce. To me, that's the sort of place you need to look for.

Another alternative is oil leaking past the valve stems. This could cause both the occasional miss at slow idle and possibly the excessive smoke under load.

Hope these help.

[sotal]

Thanks for the replies - I've never checked the valve clearances - so that is probably worth a check.

It's been like this for a good while and has been through a few oil filters and fuel filters and I've cleaned the Oil Bath twice during this time - this has never made any difference.

With ref to the battery David, you could well be right - I had an issue 12 months ago where sometimes it would start other times it would just click - I tracked this down to a loose connection on the starter motor - after tightening it's been starting fine but only with glow plugs - so you are probably right - I won't worry too much about that yet then. The battery is very good and has been used on another vehicle for a short while and was perfect on that.

The hiccup is like it's only running on 3 cyclinders for a split second - but the fuel filter has been changed - I think it had a water drain on it, so will try that again just incase. I'm not too bothered about the hiccup as it's easily solved by increasing the revs a little but I thought I'd mention it just incase it was related in any way.

Injectors were replaced 3 and a half years ago, I took the originals to the local testing place and they failed all of them but wanted silly money for new ones, I found a place on the internet that you could send your old ones to and they'd send recond ones in return. I then had these tested at the local place and all passed perfectly.

This improved the running but it wasn't that much worse with the duff injectors.

Oil leaking past the valve stems has been suggested before - I can't tell if I'm losing oil this way as I lose too much out of the rear seal! Is there any test for this / how difficult is it to cure? I'll give pretty much anything ago especially with a little guidance!

Does this further info help at all? and Thank you very much for taking the time to reply - much appreciated!!

[David Sparkes]

I have no direct experience with this engine at all. My previous response was all based on 'general knowledge'. I've never worked in the trade so my experience isn't that wide.

Oil leaking past the valve stems will be either or both missing / rock hard valve stem oil seals (if the engine has them) or worn valve guides. Valve stem oil seals (if applicable) you may be able to do without removing the head, but I think you will have to remove the head to check the valve guides.

I don't know of a test you can do to establish if this is the cause of the smoke under load (apart from running without oil, which seems a bit desperate!!).

You want to use the vehicle, so I suggest you fix the problem you can see, the rear oil seal, then you can get an idea of how much is being burnt. You have to do the rear main oil seal anyway, and I know it seems like the bigger job, but that's because it involves a bit of heavy engineering.

But remember I don't have direct experience of the engine. I believe some LR engines had rear main seals that were difficult to change without stripping the engine down, so check with someone else about that. I hope that by the time of the S3 5MB engine LR had moved to full circle synthetic seals, but, this is Land Rover and their 'Heritage' we are talking about.

Good Luck

[sotal]

I'm a bit loathed to do the rear seal as I've done it once already! Once done it lasted about a year!

I did see an interesting idea on the web which involved some common plumbing joints connected to the wading plug hole which directed the oil off into a catch can! Think the rear seal might be a better solution though!

I riveted the floor down last time as well so will have to drill the floor out to remove the gearbox.

I noticed that nobody mentioned adjusting the fuel pump at all - is it unlikely to be anything to do with that?

[TheHarv]

The hiccup is like it's only running on 3 cyclinders for a split second - but the fuel filter has been changed - I think it had a water drain on it, so will try that again just incase. I'm not too bothered about the hiccup as it's easily solved by increasing the revs a little but I thought I'd mention it just incase it was related in any way.

I have a 2.5 NA in my 110 and have been chasing down engine issues(especially smoke) ever since I've had it. I did all the fuel / timing things first (drained ENTIRE fuel system, new water trap seals, new filter; new timing belt, injectors refurbished / flow tested; timing set using all the proper tools). None of that fixed anything.

If the hiccups are worse when the engine is cold AND they are accompanied by puffs of smoke then in my experience that indicates one or more cylinders has low compression. (If they AREN'T accompanied by puffs - unburned fuel - then a sticky / blocked injector is more of a possibility). In my case I eventually traced it to the head gasket being blown between the 2 inner cylinders and their respective pushrod tubes. Obviously you can do a compression and leakdown test if you want to be scientific.

The location of the blows meant there were none of the 'text book' H/G failure signs - no coolant loss, no coolant system pressurization, no milky oil - HOWEVER it used - and blew gobs of - oil out of the tailpipe (neighbours won't be needing to creosote the fence for a while )

The other symptom was LOTS of blowby from the valve cover / filler - how's yours?

I agree with David, the mystery no-start when warm is likely a separate (electrical) issue

[nickjaxe]

Are you saying it took 30 mins to get upto temp if so thats no good,

You can get the odd puff of blue with a slight mis if the pump timing is just a tad to far retarded but, that dont follow with the smoke under power, a badly worn skew gear can cause odd probs,

I had one of those engines in mine for 35 years 180.000, I gave up on it 3 months ago and put a 200di in it, a sad time for me but I dont regret it now.

Nick.

[secondjeremy]

Black smoke under maximum power - try turning down the maximum fuel delivery a little (basically throttle stop - look at the pump and you can probably work it out.) There are full instructions in the Series11a book - may be in the series 111. Basically remember what you have done (eg 2 flats) so you can reverse it if you need to.

Diesels will fire anything except air and water. So oil leaking past valve won't cause a misfire - but air in the fuel will. Air will get in and fuel will not leak out of the same joint - so check all input pipes and joints for leaks - I'd normally say for a CAV/Lucas/Roto-diesel - don't bother with the leak-off system as they just leak and smell but on the Land Rover system the return seems to go to the filter or something - so look there as well.

And before someone picks me up on it - engine oil coming down the valve stems will still burn with blue smoke.

[sotal]

I have a 2.5 NA in my 110 and have been chasing down engine issues(especially smoke) ever since I've had it. I did all the fuel / timing things first (drained ENTIRE fuel system, new water trap seals, new filter; new timing belt, injectors refurbished / flow tested; timing set using all the proper tools). None of that fixed anything.

If the hiccups are worse when the engine is cold AND they are accompanied by puffs of smoke then in my experience that indicates one or more cylinders has low compression. (If they AREN'T accompanied by puffs - unburned fuel - then a sticky / blocked injector is more of a possibility). In my case I eventually traced it to the head gasket being blown between the 2 inner cylinders and their respective pushrod tubes. Obviously you can do a compression and leakdown test if you want to be scientific.

The location of the blows meant there were none of the 'text book' H/G failure signs - no coolant loss, no coolant system pressurization, no milky oil - HOWEVER it used - and blew gobs of - oil out of the tailpipe (neighbours won't be needing to creosote the fence for a while )

The other symptom was LOTS of blowby from the valve cover / filler - how's yours?

I agree with David, the mystery no-start when warm is likely a separate (electrical) issue

hiccups are worse when cold and accompanied by puffs of smoke. Had new head gasket fitted 3.5 years ago whilst having a snapped glow plug removed from the head. No unusual blowby from the oil filler or dipstick tube.

Are you saying it took 30 mins to get upto temp if so thats no good,

You can get the odd puff of blue with a slight mis if the pump timing is just a tad to far retarded but, that dont follow with the smoke under power, a badly worn skew gear can cause odd probs,

I had one of those engines in mine for 35 years 180.000, I gave up on it 3 months ago and put a 200di in it, a sad time for me but I dont regret it now.

Nick.

No it didn't take 30 mins to get up to temperature - not sure how long but on the journey home 3 hours later it was up to temperature in about 5 mins. In winter though it never gets up to temperature.

Black smoke under maximum power - try turning down the maximum fuel delivery a little (basically throttle stop - look at the pump and you can probably work it out.) There are full instructions in the Series11a book - may be in the series 111. Basically remember what you have done (eg 2 flats) so you can reverse it if you need to.

Diesels will fire anything except air and water. So oil leaking past valve won't cause a misfire - but air in the fuel will. Air will get in and fuel will not leak out of the same joint - so check all input pipes and joints for leaks - I'd normally say for a CAV/Lucas/Roto-diesel - don't bother with the leak-off system as they just leak and smell but on the Land Rover system the return seems to go to the filter or something - so look there as well.

And before someone picks me up on it - engine oil coming down the valve stems will still burn with blue smoke.

That max fuel delivery bit sounds like a good thought - will take a look for that.

The 'missfire' isn't terrible, I wasn't that bothered about that just mentioned it incase it was related, it just sort of misses once every 20-30 seconds just for a split second but increasing the revs by just a notch on the hand throttle 'cures' it.

Just to add the engine seems to have plenty of power to me, I've not had that many to compare it to but it goes the best out of the 3 or 4 I've used, it also is probably the noisest out of them! (just in general loudness rather than clattery etc - could be gearbox helping with the noise too) It pulls the best and I seem to be getting about 60mph on my GPS out of her. She is quite nippy in 1st and 2nd but then feels sluggish in 3rd and 4th until up to speed.

I can get the MOT done any day after tomorrow, so not sure if I should mess before or after MOT (It's passed each year before like this!)

[TheRecklessEngineer]

My 2.25 diesel used to do something similar. I put it down to being incredibly tired - 30 years of abuse in the army.

I suspected it was down on compression on one or more cylinders, but rather than investigating, I replaced it with a V8

I'd get a compression and leak down test done, if nothing else it will eliminate head gasket and rings/pistons etc.

[Les Henson]

it has a little hiccup and a small cloud of smoke comes out of the exhaust.

Timing by the sounds of it.

Intermittent puffs of white smoke on start-up from cold that gradually diminish as the engine warms up is the same thing - increased engine heat dissipates it.

Les.

[sotal]

Thanks for the reply Les,

Would the timing being out affect the smoke on full throttle?

How would I adjust the timing to correct this?

[Les Henson]

Injector pump timing is altered by slackening the ends of the injector pipes, slackening the 3 pump nuts, then turning it a small amount (there should be a pointer to indicate timing position). Just 1/2 mm at a time though, or you'll go too far the opposite way.

Les.

[sotal]

Ah yes - I've tried that a few times, but will give it another go. Was just making sure you weren't meaning anything more in depth with the timing chain etc.