Now I've had it with this effing carb!

[allinger]

Why is it that things tend to get out of hand as soon as gizmos, doodads and general tinkering is the subject?

I've been fiddling around with the dizzy, the carb and all their assorted gaps, screws and valves ever since the SafariTruck came under present management. And all to little or no avail. Dear old 2.25-petrol iron stove still idles rough, still stalls on slow-down (replacing various hoses seems to have improved hard-braking-stalling at least...) and still needs a whole lotta' choke to keep going. It get's warmer way faster than the Td5 though:-)

So what's a guy to do? First idea was to replace the carb, but that's sort of an iffy solution, as a vintage Zenith is likely to be as worn as the one in place and Webers and SUs come with their own issues (or so I've read). Second was to electronify the dizzy, so as to get a strong and reliable spark. But again there's all sorts of variables to take into account. Then I stumbled on this MegaJolt thingy, which seemed like a fairly nifty solution... (Slippery slope - I guess you can see where this is heading?)

So, now I'm neck deep in MegaSquirt facts, diagrams and ideas (not to mention head-spinny confusion) and sinking fast...

Backing up a bit, what really set me off was this guy's web page (LR named Otly, I think - english electronic land rover seems to ring a bell) which started promising and then ended with a bit of a "pop". In short he set off to MegaSquirt a 2.25 petrol, using a TBI from a 1.6l VW Golf as a starting point. Unfortunately, his venture hasn't been updated since 2007 or so, so no help there I guess.

Then I (obviously) trawled through the threads here - there seems to have been some 2.25 projects started during the past years, however none of them has ended with a Evreka! - rather they seem to have petered out after a few posts. Finally I had a look at the MSRuns board and realised that there are at present at least two 2.25 lumps running MS in the known universe. I intend to become #3... Unfortunately for me, much, if not all of the info concerning LR and MS is regarding V8 engines. And the MS site seems very much geared towards performance (and rather more modern engines than the museum piece that's bolted in front of my steering wheel :-) ).

So, there's a LOT of stuff that I need to sort before starting up in earnest. TBI or individual injectors? EDIS or straight to coil? And if the later, how to wire it up to a coil pack. Or do I need a coil pack if i opt-out of the EDIS? Sensors? Where do they go? And are there any already available in the engine? Brackets? Adaptor plates? See? How am I to sort all this out? Because now that the idea has taken hold, it's well unlikely that it'll go away:-)

Anyways, at this semi-formed, tadpole stage, my plan looks like this: get hold of a 2.25 inlet manifold, a Golf 1.6i TBI (which, as I understand comes complete with a lot of neccessary goodies), an EDIS and a coil pack from a Fiesta XR2i. That way I'll have a manifold and some bits and bobs to experiment with, without wrecking the overall driveability of the SafariTruck. Then, once there's less of an echo in my pockets, I'll splurge on a MSII v3 (as I've understood that that's what I need if I want to run EDIS, ignition and the rest of the goodies) as well as a relay board and other associated bits and pieces. Beween now and then I'll try to understand the wiring and tuning and whatnot:-)

So, on my shopping list I have the following:

1 Golf 1.6i TBI

1 Golf 1.6 fuel pump

1 Ford Fiesta XR2i EDIS and coil pack

1 MSII v3 ECU

1 MS relay board

1 LR 2.25 inlet manifold

wires and connectors for ECU, PC et al

1 air filter box (off of a Disco or similar perhaps)

chunks of nylon, ali or something to fabb an adaptor out of

(obviously it's a free-for-all to point out the error of my ways, futility in what I'm up to or the forehead-slapping "how could you forget 'xxx'" piece of kit ;-) )

And finally, if there's something else missing/that I ought to think over/should avoid like the plague, please let me know - I'm really having a blast trying to digest all of this and all input is most welcome!

[Hybrid_From_Hell]

<cough>

Manifold Air Temp & Bung

Lamda Unit and Bung

Trigger wheel ?

Nige

[FridgeFreezer]

I don't have time to post a comprehensive reply right now, but fundamentally MS'ing a 2.25 is no more difficult than doing the same to a V8 on carbs & dizzy. All the same things apply, there's just half as many cylinders and fewer people have gone before you.

[allinger]

<cough>

Manifold Air Temp & Bung

Lamda Unit and Bung

Trigger wheel ?

Nige

Keeps getting longer, doesn't it, that list of mine!

As soon as the boss decides that he's needed at the pub, I'll send off a massive print job. It's really a pain on the eyes trying to digest all the MS info on here on screen. And I promise - there'll be no peeking ahead to the advanced threads

Oooo this is going to be so much fun!

[FridgeFreezer]

1 MSII v3 ECU

Are you sure?

You really don't need an MS-II, and the setup & softfware is a LOT more complicated than a normal MS-I ECU. The MS-II was only supposed to be a development board for the MS-III. Not only will it be like nailing a supercomputer to an abacus, it will make life much harder as very few of us round here run MS-II for the above reasons.

As per Nige's V8 thread, an MS-I V3 board running MS'n'S-Extra 029v will be absolutely fine and make life much easier diagnostics wise.

[Quagmire]

I want to do this to my youngest brothers s3 that is currently being re-chassis'd.

I figure that it'll be fun along the way and at the end you should have a well running car, that gives as good economy as you can get. Nice!

Good luck and keep us posted.

[FridgeFreezer]

Two thoughts for you:

- Aparrently there's an '80s BMW inlet manifold (318, 316?) that bolts on.

- Weber TBI bolts in place of a carb and was fitted to all sorts of things, mostly small cars of the late 80's onwards (EG some models of Pug 106, Citroen AX, Pug 405, Citroen BX).

TSD says google for "Monotronic", which is NOT to be confused with the higher spec Bosch Motronic. Monotronic is th cut-down cheapy version for SPI.

[allinger]

Are you sure?

Sure I am not, sensei - in search of knowledge I am...

[allinger]

Two thoughts for you:

- Aparrently there's an '80s BMW inlet manifold (318, 316?) that bolts on.

Beamer inlet I will search for. And then ask for more advice..

There was a fount o wisdom here, I just knew it:)

[FridgeFreezer]

Another suggestion was to machine four spacers that bolt between inlet manifold & block and accept an injector each, but only if you can find a nice thick nylon chopping board to make them from what with ali being quite pricey these days.

[allinger]

And now I'm properly confluxed...

[allinger]

FWIW - all this snow is really gettin on my nerves...

Now to our regular programming - what to do with the stock fuel pump and dizzy? The fuel pump connection could just be blanked off I assume, but what of the dizzy? It does need a bit of modifying (a la Nige) doesn't it?

[Bowie69]

You don't *need* to do anything with it TBH, it can quite happily stay in place...

Struggling to remember after having filled my head with V8s for the last couple of years, I think at least some part of it needs to stay in place to drive/align the oil pump shaft....?

[greenstream]

Two thoughts for you:

- Aparrently there's an '80s BMW inlet manifold (318, 316?) that bolts on.

- Weber TBI bolts in place of a carb and was fitted to all sorts of things, mostly small cars of the late 80's onwards (EG some models of Pug 106, Citroen AX, Pug 405, Citroen BX).

TSD says google for "Monotronic", which is NOT to be confused with the higher spec Bosch Motronic. Monotronic is th cut-down cheapy version for SPI.

Hi

FF does that beamer manifold have "holes" for the injectors ?

When we are looking for parts for such a project, should one go for the engine volume or the HP ?

And when looking for MS-ecu like the MS1-V3 then sometimes its stated that this one is moded for EDIS, 4 cyl etc. Aren´t all these options that lie within each ecu and can be choseb by your self ?

Thanks for the HJ -

Cheers

Greenstream

[FridgeFreezer]

FF does that beamer manifold have "holes" for the injectors ?

I'd assume so. I've no idea which one it is, I've just heard that someone used one or found it to fit.

When we are looking for parts for such a project, should one go for the engine volume or the HP ?

HP is a reasonable guide, which means you can probably look at modern cars with engines from about 1 litre upwards , although having a bit of overhead is no bad thing.

And when looking for MS-ecu like the MS1-V3 then sometimes its stated that this one is moded for EDIS, 4 cyl etc. Aren´t all these options that lie within each ecu and can be choseb by your self ?

Some stuff is set in software, some is an actual modification of the hardware.

ECU's need to be built or modified to give the correct signals for EDIS units, and to drive PWM controlled idle air valves, electric fans, shift/warning lights etc. and accept extra inputs such as a switch for dual tables on LPG.

Things like the number of cylinders is something you tell the ECU in software.

[greenstream]

Thanks FF.

Morten

[greenstream]

FF does that beamer manifold have "holes" for the injectors ?

I'd assume so. I've no idea which one it is, I've just heard that someone used one or found it to fit.

When we are looking for parts for such a project, should one go for the engine volume or the HP ?

HP is a reasonable guide, which means you can probably look at modern cars with engines from about 1 litre upwards , although having a bit of overhead is no bad thing.

And when looking for MS-ecu like the MS1-V3 then sometimes its stated that this one is moded for EDIS, 4 cyl etc. Aren´t all these options that lie within each ecu and can be choseb by your self ?

Some stuff is set in software, some is an actual modification of the hardware.

ECU's need to be built or modified to give the correct signals for EDIS units, and to drive PWM controlled idle air valves, electric fans, shift/warning lights etc. and accept extra inputs such as a switch for dual tables on LPG.

Things like the number of cylinders is something you tell the ECU in software.

Could you please explain ot me in plain english why I should choose the PWM ?

Cheers

Morten

[Hybrid_From_Hell]

Could you please explain ot me in plain english why I should choose the PWM ?

Cheers

Morten

A "PWM" is your autochoke for No 1 , it helps starting, and is a simple 2 wire Bosch unit, without a PWM yes you can start your engine but is sometimes hard, esp when its really cold. 2nd a PWM gives you "Closed Loop" again in simple terms it will help make a solid tickover by opening and closing thereby adjusting extar air to help stabilize tickover, very useful for off road

That do ?

Nige

[greenstream]

Hi Nige

Thanks alot and I guess this aplies to both 4 pot or 8 pot.

Morten

[TheRecklessEngineer]

Just to expand slightly on Nige's reply. Think of it as an automatic throttle control. At idle, the PWM idle valve will endeavour to hold the idle at a preset value (750 rpm on my V8). This will hold even if you load it up - i.e. in gear and pointed at a hill. It will allow a little more air into the engine allowing the extra load without any loss in rpm. Obviously it has limitations, but you get the gist.

This also helps with cold starting as when the engine is under a certain temperature, it can be set to hold a fast idle (900 rpm for my v8).

And will also 'blip' the throttle upon cranking to help the engine to catch.

So yes...a very useful little beasty.

Can you tell I've just got mine working properly and I'm very pleased with it?

[allinger]

Another suggestion was to machine four spacers that bolt between inlet manifold & block and accept an injector each, but only if you can find a nice thick nylon chopping board to make them from what with ali being quite pricey these days.

Machining spacers I guess I could sort, but wouldn't that mean that a contraption for throttle control needs to be fabbed up as well?

Oh, and at the risk of coming across as really dense - what does PWM stand for?

[greenstream]

Machining spacers I guess I could sort, but wouldn't that mean that a contraption for throttle control needs to be fabbed up as well?

Oh, and at the risk of coming across as really dense - what does PWM stand for?

Instead of machining spacers, then a nother option would be to grab a intakemanifold from an 2,25 diesel and weld some bungs into that for the injectors ?

I´ve been looking at Beamer intakes and haven´t found one yet where the intakes are paired as on the LR-engine, so it might need some machining as well.

As I remember then PWM is some kind of electronic controlsystem, wich is used in a lot of places and here its used to control an idle-unit.

Please correct me if im wrong about this.

Cheers

Morten

[TheRecklessEngineer]

PWM stands for pulse width modulation

[FridgeFreezer]

It's one use for an old carburettor - gut it and use it as the throttle, a lot of the MS crowd do that when converting.

Incidentally, the MS forums have a whole section on mounting injectors etc., you can buy drill bits which drill a perfect stepped hole for an injector, extruded aluminium fuel rail by the metre, all sorts.

[zoltan]

Sorry, mild hijack: What would the difference in average MPG be between a 3.5l V8 and the 2 1/4 petrol say both standard, running carbs and dizzy?

(have just got a Series 2A and am mulling over the best option for touring type mileage/motorway hills etc)