Winch amparage question

[MrKev]

They seem to think that a failed steel wire rope is only a hazard behind the truck for the length of the rope. It's an equal hazard directly away from the truck behind the attachment point if it fails at the fairlead, and subsequently recoils away from the truck, toward the point.

Kev

[zardos]

What Daan said.

The kill switch may be able to break 800A but if it melts when your winch draws over 180A for a few seconds no-one's going to be fitting them, or they'll be fitting them for scrutineering and either not wiring them as they should or bridging them out as soon as the scrutineer moves along.

From the e-mails above it seems to suggest that the MSA don't really cover winch challenges as they are currently run, which makes me wonder how legal/insured any of the previous events have been - if someone dies and the MSA are going to walk away things could get a bit sticky for organisers?

My example of a albright DC88P is bad, as it's not a cut-off switch but I could not find the break current of the large durite isolator, but as the durite isolator has a thermal current rating of 250 to 2500A I would expect it's break current to be at least 2500A.

As for people using the albright DC88P, most people I've seen uses these as the control solenoid for their winches (usually 1 per motor).

And using these the winch motors are isolated from the battery by default (I would still use a manual isolator as well)

Warn and other Winch manufacturers ship winches with similar rated control solenoids (and some even sell them as extra cut-off solenoids)

As for the MSA trying to specify things like current rating etc, they should not bother and just ban winches

As most winch manufacturers (warn, superwinch, etc) ship their winches with 2 AWG or 35sqmm cable, Depending on your info source that size wire is on rated for 95 to 240 Amps

No way near the current rating they quote for their motors of around 480Amps (or they are lying about the HP of their motors)

[zardos]

Having ready the proposed new MSA rules

58.2.4. All vehicles must be fitted with a circuit

breaker which isolates the battery from all

electrical circuits, which simultaneously stops

the engine and which is operable by the driver

whilst correctly seated. K.8 recommended

And section K8 of current blue book says nothing about current rating or method of isolation.

I'm no MSA scrutineer but as long as your winch does not when then main isolator is off then you should be ok (so make sure the solenoids are powered via the main isolator not any additional isolator)

This is the way Boothy and myself do it.

Note that I don't think that factory standard Warn or Superwinches (and possibly others) will comply as they usually take the solenoid power from the main winch power cable but that can easily be fixed.

[Matt BADLRC]

Having ready the proposed new MSA rules

58.2.4. All vehicles must be fitted with a circuit

breaker which isolates the battery from all

electrical circuits, which simultaneously stops

the engine and which is operable by the driver

whilst correctly seated. K.8 recommended

And section K8 of current blue book says nothing about current rating or method of isolation.

I'm no MSA scrutineer but as long as your winch does not when then main isolator is off then you should be ok (so make sure the solenoids are powered via the main isolator not any additional isolator)

This is the way Boothy and myself do it.

Note that I don't think that factory standard Warn or Superwinches (and possibly others) will comply as they usually take the solenoid power from the main winch power cable but that can easily be fixed.

Those of you that have been doing the Howlin Wolfe and some of our events will have been doing events from a set of SR's that are not too far away from the new proposed regs anyway.

If your vehicle is road going then it needs to comply with the rules of the land and cannot carry ground anchors etc on the bonnet, bumper etc.

If not then you will be a challenge special, and can be none registered.Organisers will have to look at class structure as road legal is normally one of the classes.

Isolator must kill the winch and the engine a size hasn't been stated as already stated in another post.

Most peoples winch and or steering pumps started life in some other application and should all be rated by the manufacturer.

If you don't have a front or rear window fitted you will need to fit suitable wire mesh front and rear.

The current rule for organisers for 2010 that can be reduced if all competitors use synthetic ropes is as follows:-

23.1.11 Where a winch cable or rope may be deployed the area of that section shall be no less that the length of the outstretched winch cable or rope and only competitors attempting the section and the observing official may be present in the Section.

e.g if a competitor might need to put out 100 meters of rope in theory you need a taped area front back and left and right.

for 2011 if all competitors use synthetic rope the area can be reduced.

When we checked all competitors recovery/ winch kit at an event earlier this year everybody's met the criteria listed in the changes.

another set of rules is being worked for events where hunting for punches is part of the event, so depending on your idea of a challenge event there is a suitable set of regs that can be used.

[Boothy]

100 metres Matt, at just under £3 a FOOT there's not many motors that will carry a 100 metres.

Question, if spectators are not allowed on site then that's the winch roped area theory put to bed I presume, especially for large sites ????

Only asking !!!!

[Matt BADLRC]

100 metres Matt, at just under £3 a FOOT there's not many motors that will carry a 100 metres.

Question, if spectators are not allowed on site then that's the winch roped area theory put to bed I presume, especially for large sites ????

Only asking !!!!

I used 100M as an extreme example, basically yes, but that's not very friendly, so hence all our tape and no winching outside the area and building spectator areas on some sections etc. in 2011 if all use synthetic rope then the area can be reduced and will be less of an issue.

[FridgeFreezer]

So, playing devil's avocado here, if trucks have to comply with C&U not just MOT, and assuming you can't just cherry-pick things like anchors on the bumper, you're effectively saying the scrutineers have to conduct an SVA on-site for each truck and if it fails they get bumped a class? Given that a standard Defender won't pass an SVA, this seems a rather big vat of worms to be opening? :ph34r:

[redrodant]

I used 100M as an extreme example, basically yes, but that's not very friendly, so hence all our tape and no winching outside the area and building spectator areas on some sections etc. in 2011 if all use synthetic rope then the area can be reduced and will be less of an issue.

Other competitors are also excluded!!! Just the 2 x crew and the 1x official are allowed!

[redrodant]

So, playing devil's avocado here, if trucks have to comply with C&U not just MOT, and assuming you can't just cherry-pick things like anchors on the bumper, you're effectively saying the scrutineers have to conduct an SVA on-site for each truck and if it fails they get bumped a class? Given that a standard Defender won't pass an SVA, this seems a rather big vat of worms to be opening? :ph34r:

Thats an awfull lot to look at, and a huge responcability! I wonder if MSA scrutaneers will have to be used??

[Matt BADLRC]

So, playing devil's avocado here, if trucks have to comply with C&U not just MOT, and assuming you can't just cherry-pick things like anchors on the bumper, you're effectively saying the scrutineers have to conduct an SVA on-site for each truck and if it fails they get bumped a class? Given that a standard Defender won't pass an SVA, this seems a rather big vat of worms to be opening? :ph34r:

Personally if you got ride of any kit carried on the front bumper bonnet etc, and your wheels don't stick out of the body work and if you have a tray back you have as near to 120 degree coverage of the rear wheels with some sort of spats/flaps/ guards what ever is reasonably practical. and all the rest of the stuff is fitted that you need for the road. C&U was the phrase used instead of road legal, as just having tnt on your vehilce doesn't make it road legal. and this all came about that if you have a road legal ruck with stuff fitted on bonnet bumper and you can move it to else where then you will be classed as a challenge special.

[Matt BADLRC]

Other competitors are also excluded!!! Just the 2 x crew and the 1x official are allowed!

23.1.11 in the book I have got it says Competitors which means you could have more than one otherwise it would say competitor wouldn't it. It means isolate the spectators from the area to a safe area, how you do that is down to you, have viewing pens close the site etc.

[redrodant]

23.1.11 in the book I have got it says Competitors which means you could have more than one otherwise it would say competitor wouldn't it. It means isolate the spectators from the area to a safe area, how you do that is down to you, have viewing pens close the site etc.

Actually it means 3 people, 2x competitors "known as a team" and 1x official!!=3!

Definition of a Challenge Event is;

(k) Challenge Event. An event the aim of which is for

competitors to manoeuvre their vehicles to a remote

location by means of driving, towing and or winching,

or any combination thereof and where proof of

visiting that location is by way of the scorecard, which

shall be permanently attached to the vehicle, being

officially marked.

And yes you need to either have a minimum of an official per objective or per team.

Self Recovery off section. See P1.2.1.

P1.2.1. With the exception of Team and Winch Recovery

events, all recovery operations will be under the control

of the Clerk of the Course.

Now strictly speaking we should add Challenge Events to P1.2.1. to cover sefl recovery on section.

We havent proposed Punch Hunt as such but to cater for events where winches arent required the following is about to go out for consultation;

(b) Cross Country Orienteering. An event involving a cross country map reading exercise where the use of a vehicle is merely incidental as a means of transport,and in which the experience or skill of a Driver plays no part. navigating and driving a vehicle to an objective, or series of objectives.

This you will note is an amendment to the Orienteering Regulations.

Essentially then a Challenge is an extreme version of Orienteering where objectives may not always be reached by unassisted driving. The revisisons to Orienteering allow for an event where comnpetitors can drive directly to the objective.

[redrodant]

Having ready the proposed new MSA rules

58.2.4. All vehicles must be fitted with a circuit

breaker which isolates the battery from all

electrical circuits, which simultaneously stops

the engine and which is operable by the driver

whilst correctly seated. K.8 recommended

And section K8 of current blue book says nothing about current rating or method of isolation.

I'm no MSA scrutineer but as long as your winch does not when then main isolator is off then you should be ok (so make sure the solenoids are powered via the main isolator not any additional isolator)

This is the way Boothy and myself do it.

Note that I don't think that factory standard Warn or Superwinches (and possibly others) will comply as they usually take the solenoid power from the main winch power cable but that can easily be fixed.

My understanding of a cut out switch is that it kills ALL POWER AT THAT SINGLE POINT!!!, The MSA don't have to bother with the niggly issues of how this is achieved, nor the fact that there may or may not be a switch suitable, thats the competitors problem,remember its up to the competitor to prove his truck complies!!! not the scrutaneer to prove it dose!! so if mr scrutaneer pops around ur truck with a volt meter, as ive seen in the past, checking for voltage at alternators, coils, starters,ect and he pops it on a winch solinoid, and it stays live, u dont comply!!!so u don't play!. Like i said it's ur responcability as a competitor to comply, so basicly its ur fault u fitted a winch which pulls too much power for a switch "u fitted" and it melts / fails!! . Remember the MSA are basicly"""insurance"", and if u want to be covered by there insurance, u have to play by there rules!!!

[MrHT]

mine technically runs 2 isolators.

1 all earths before battery including winch. (need to double up but can't afford to but will be done for rebuild)

2 islotors for front and rear positive to winches.

all connections are regulaly checked and cleaned and lubricated.

not had problems yet!! i'm also running 70mm2 cable to and from winches

i haven't had over heating problems or other power problems like some I know either running 35mm2 cable or people who don't regulaly clean contacts.

Don't forget we stick thease things into crappy water just about every time we go out, if you don't clean up your connections after every event they will just furr up corrode and fail especially with the amount of power we demand.

Oh and I'm running twin maximas on a 55 AMP altornator and on th all the events i've done I have NEVER had my batterys die.

[Night Train]

I wonder if anyone has tried running their competition winches with a speed controller?

A quick search brings up the Curtis 1205-3xx 12v 400A and the 1205-24-36v 400A.

It would save all the problems with matching line speed and switch breaking high currents flows. Just connect the isolator with no load and then bring the speed up, then down and then open the isolator with no load.

One controller could be contator switched to front or rear winch depedning on which is in use, or have two controllers. Not cheap but then neither are the winches or other spendy bits on competition vehicles.

[tyrone]

would it be possible to link a number of isolators together mechanicaly to all turn with one lever does that then count as one isolator?????

there is an interesting bit about your rope being strong enough for the winch well all know the load puls of a standad winch but what about when you modify and change ratios and drum diameter your then giving the winch more power so that changes. do we have to have our winch's tested to see what they do pull.....

also i am not aware of any safety cut out on a winch and i dont like the idea of something shearing in the winch to tell me its over loaded as i am winching over a cliff ect...

i am no expert but am interested so do say if i miss-understood

[zardos]

also i am not aware of any safety cut out on a winch and i dont like the idea of something shearing in the winch to tell me its over loaded as i am winching over a cliff ect...

A standard warn 8274 has an overload safety cut out system I seem to remember, the free spool handle pops out when a certain load is reached (it does not go it to free spool when under load though)

A lot of people with this winch drill and R clip the handle to stop it popping out)

When I bought my 90 it had a bank of self reseting fuses to protect from overload (each 50A with 5 in total, but this is only half load of the winch )

It was soon removed.

[tyrone]

i thought that was a flaw in the design lol. sounds like were going to need a load of test certificates to do a challenge now

[redrodant]

i thought that was a flaw in the design lol. sounds like were going to need a load of test certificates to do a challenge now

Maybe, maybe not I Stumbled accross a MSA Man over the weekend, had a little chat

[tyrone]

the hole thing seems very gray if you know what i mean. think there are some loop holes mind

[redrodant]

the hole thing seems very gray if you know what i mean. think there are some loop holes mind

Unfortunatly the loopholes seem to be in favour of the MSA, "ITS YOUR RESPONSABILITY" which dose beg the question, will they stand by challenge in the event of a accident or claim

[tyrone]

but if you play by there rules they ought to if not its a waste of time and money. know you will get some answers dave

[redrodant]

but if you play by there rules they ought to if not its a waste of time and money. know you will get some answers dave

IN the Autumn 2010 "Mototsport Now" mag" which is Printed by the MSA, there are some NEW revised rules for 2011.

Which are a lot better

[yella 90]

IN the Autumn 2010 "Mototsport Now" mag" which is Printed by the MSA, there are some NEW revised rules for 2011.

Which are a lot better

Think i might have a read, although i dont give a flying hoot about all this msa carp that i keep hearing about. Sports and rules evolve so deal with it rather than crying and moaning about it

[Nobbymogs]

there is another way of doing it by using the kill switch to kill the earths not the live that way you can use one isolator switch