Time to tune the MS properly...

[Andrew Cleland]

OK, I got the MS & EDIS installed last summer and starting with the 3.9 map supplied by Nige quickly got up and running, albeit a bit rough, which was probably due to the cam (Crower 50229), Rhoads lifters and tubular manifolds making things a bit different from a stock 3.9. A few drives with the laptop connected and then running through the VE Analyser in MegalogViewer sorted things out to the extent that she now drives fine. This was fine, as I was in a hurry to try things out and I got going quickly. However a couple of things are bothering me - firstly she smells rich at idle (and the MoT is due) and secondly the fuel table is a mess, and I'm kind-of of the opinion that if it doesn't look right...

MS map after autotune by AC72, on Flickr

On top of that, I'm not convinced the IAV is working properly and I'm concerned that it misbehaving may be messing other things up.

So, as I now have an MoT to get through, I've decided to start tuning from scratch again, concentrating on first getting the idle right and not too rich, then I can work on the rest of the map and finally once I'm happy with all that, try to get the IAV working. So here's my plan - can someone who knows better than me shout if it looks silly...

1. Get the engine warmed-up as things are - easiest this way as she runs OK.

2. Remove the idle air valve, plug both the pipes with a bit of dowel and go into the MS and disable the Idle Control. I'm not entirely sure how to do this - set the PWM idle to 'Warmup only' and then make sure that 'Slow idle (upper) Temp' is set to below the running temperature of the engine?

3. Load up the original 3.9 MSQ from Nige and restart the engine - which will be warm and should run OK-ish.

4. Go to Constants in MegaTune and lower the Required Fuel value in small steps, watching what this does to Engine MAP. Keep lowering ReqFuel until the MAP doesn't go any lower and then reset ReqFuel to the original value and go into Basic Settings - VE Table 1 - Tools menu - VE Specific - Reset ReqFuel and use the ReqFuel that gave the best idle vacuum to shift the whole VE table so that I get the good vacuum at idle.

5. Then taking note of the idle values in the VE table, go for a drive and use autotune, but making sure the idle values aren't changed by autotune (i.e. changing them back if need be).

I'm really not sure I've got the right idea here!

Cheers,

Andrew.

[Bowie69]

ReqFuel is only really an arbitrary figure, you could set it to 100 and still be able to tune properly, you would just end up with some strange looking VE figures, like 5

I think you are overcomplicating things a bit TBH, use Niges map and go for a tune, IAV won't make any difference as it should only be active around idle, which you are tuning manually anyways, aren't you?

If you get weird figures in your VE table (I notice a figure of 100 at one point) then you may need to look into air leaks in your exhaust or inlet, or possibly a misfire, this will screw up the lambda reading meaning the tune will go all cock-eyed.

How long have you tuned for so far? You will probably need half a dozen 20 minute runs to get a reasonable map out of it, if that's your first run attempt then you just haven't done it enough!

Hope that helps a bit, also read up in the MS forum, I am sure Nige has done a write up on tuning, as well as BBC, and probably more people.

[zoltan]

I'd stick with the map you've got and tweak just the areas that the MOT is going to test. That is, after all, all that the manufacturers did most of the time as I am reliably told

The rest will follow

[bobtail84]

Standard 3.9 with tubular headers fuel map

and again standard 3.9 with tubular headers spark map

Now, Andrew, I'm not saying your maps are wrong but the fuel is all over the place and the spark map is too retarded in the 500 to 1500 rpm range. When you put your boot to it the map KPA will rise to 95ish and the spark is between 6 & 9 deg. The engine will bog down and struggle till you get the revs up. The map is like a dizzy curve and tuners have been trying to get dizzies more advanced at lower revs for... well for ever and they cant. With MS you can give it lots so try it and see what's good for your engine, my spark map was made after a long chat with a man who has forgotten more than I will ever know about tuning and the difference is astounding.

Fuel map.

Try my fuel map in your car and if you watch where your tickover bins are you can lower the numbers to bring the lambda down.

When you data log you would be better to set the cell change in MLV VE analyzer to hard or V hard and don't forget that you can change the numbers in the default AFR table so it suits your engine and requirements.

I can't see why you want to remove the Idle air valve?

HTH

Jeff

[Hybrid_From_Hell]

Just to note

I supply all my Msqs "+8%" On fuelling, and spark at top end up to -2 degrees

This is because in simple terms better too rich than too lean.

If peeps are out with Timing then that if advaned makes it worse / more liable for damage

It / they are "Safe" Maps, designed to get you running and sorted.

Once runing I woukld suggest a Timing Gun on No 1 lead and compare what it says with what it should be

any difference either trim via Spark settings in the MS Software or readjust the triger wheel etc

Once this is SPOT ON then drop entire fuel table by 2%, drive and see if it feels better if OK then ENTIRE

VE gain by another 2% and so on, if you still feel it OK see if you can go -8% in total and still "Feel" ok

THEN, switch on MLV or TS and do at Normal, and a few 30 min logs compare, if you have rogue cells reset them and drive

and make the cell hit loads of times, the more logs the better, aviod any deep water / water as that can cool the

Lambda and give hugely false readings.

As OP says, req fuel is like what size bucket you wnat to use - its a coarse setting, don't adjust what I give

in the Files as the coarse setting is bl**dy good tune via the 8% rule above and then MLV / TS for the fine tuning

and then if anyone wants contact me re spark and how much you can add for a friskier drive, TOO MUCH Spark will not only

dmage engines long term but actually reduce peformance from the right spark.

In fairness to get the right spark you need a rolling road knock sensors and a few years experience, most of the MSQs I give out

are based on various engine from rolling roads, inc mine and others than I have helped tune, but also remmeber with tolerances no

2 engines are the same, better to run a tad soft on spark and a tad rich than too advanced and too lean

Remember the basics

VR Position for timing

VR GAP

Plugs condition and gap

Decent leads and earths

Clean fuel filters and air filters

Fresh Oil

decent condition engine / cam / compressions etc

Patience and logging and effort

= results

HTH

Nige

[Andrew Cleland]

Thanks all for the advice. Even as I was writing out the first message, I thought it sounded wrong! ;-)

I'll give Nige's -2% on the map method a try tomorrow and see how that goes.

Cheers,

Andrew.

[Andrew Cleland]

Righto, managed to make a start with tuning the 110 this weekend. Didn't get as much done as I'd planned as Saturday was spent drying out the Panda (engine and all) after underestimating the depth of the local ford and then sorting things out after the missus' mountain bike was nicked as she had her hair cut :-(

Anyhow, got the engine started using Nige's default 3.9 msq and went for a short drive to do some logging, although probabaly not long enough to analyse properly in MLV. Starting took a bit of nursing until the engine warmed-up and I think she was quite rich as the O2 was off the scale all the way through warming-up at idle.

I had two issues which I've not seen before and maybe related:

- the gauges in MT kept flashing red all at once and when the log is played back in MLV it pauses here and there, which I think probably coincides with the flashing gauges. I'm guessing this is a comms issue, although I've not seen it before. In the past I've been using a Macbook Pro running Windows XP under VMWare Fusion and with a USB - Serial adaptor, now I'm using a new Dell laptop with a built-in serial port and also running Windows XP, which I'd expect to be more reliable than the Macbook, but maybe not. I tried turning Diagnostic Logging on under Communications in MT, but the log file doesn't mean a whole lot to me.

- I also had a reset whilst I was driving. MT beeped and in the log file MLV gives 'Mark 002 Reset 9' and a red line through all the gauges. I didn't notice anything while I was driving and the engine didn't stop, which I thought it would if the MS reset itself? There were a lot of the pauses in logging just before the reset, which may be related - some sort of buffer filling-up maybe?

I've tried to attach the log file, but the board doesn't seem to let me attach .xls or .zip files.

Cheers,

Andy.

[FridgeFreezer]

Resets don't stop the car, most of the time you probably won't notice them but they are a sign that something's not quite right. Often it's earthing, or noise on the sensitive sensor wires. Back EMF from coil packs / drivers is also a cause but with EDIS this shouldn't be making its way back to the ECU.

The laptop comms can suffer the same fate - the RS232 cable joins the laptop ground to the ECU's ground, so if they're floating apart (eg dodgy laptop PSU or badly earthed ECU) you can get weird effects or even damage the COM port. Using the COM port itself should mean rock solid comms compared with most USB-serial devices.

[Andrew Cleland]

Resets don't stop the car, most of the time you probably won't notice them but they are a sign that something's not quite right. Often it's earthing, or noise on the sensitive sensor wires. Back EMF from coil packs / drivers is also a cause but with EDIS this shouldn't be making its way back to the ECU.

The laptop comms can suffer the same fate - the RS232 cable joins the laptop ground to the ECU's ground, so if they're floating apart (eg dodgy laptop PSU or badly earthed ECU) you can get weird effects or even damage the COM port. Using the COM port itself should mean rock solid comms compared with most USB-serial devices.

Cheers FF, that's what I thought about the laptop comms - the proper serial port should be better than a USB - RS232 converter. I'm going to try the original Macbook/Fusion setup again to see if maybe the PSU on the Dell is a little flaky, either that or I've a grounding issue somewhere. To be fair the Landy hasn't been used for a while, so it could be a tad damp in places, as it's got factory-fitted waterproofing (i.e. none).

ms-reset-20110116 by AC72, on Flickr

Looking at the logging in MLV at the time of the reset, I don't see anything glaring at me. The battery voltage is ripply, but only by about 0.1V, which should be OK. The MAP does drop to it's minimum for the whole log just before the reset, which might be related. I'm also wondering if the O2 reading should be so spiky? The lambda sensor is quite far down the exhaust, about a foot or so after the Y piece - it was the easiest place to fit it and it is a heated sensor. I did have to do some wading on Friday (to pull the Panda out of the ford), I wonder if that's annoyed it - it wasn't deep enough to submerge the sensor but I'm sure it could have got a decent splash or two.

AC

[Bowie69]

The O2 signal is pretty normal, nothing to worry about there.

I have been wading frequently with my narrowband and not popped one yet....

[FridgeFreezer]

I'm a bit confuddled as to how you managed a maximum MAP reading of 121 unless you had a misfire somewhere in the log?

[Andrew Cleland]

I'm a bit confuddled as to how you managed a maximum MAP reading of 121 unless you had a misfire somewhere in the log?

Bomb going off nearby! ;-)

It seems to be right at the start of the log, when I powered-up the MS and before the engine had started. I'd assumed this was just normal as it booted-up, but maybe not?

cranking-2011jan16 by AC72, on Flickr

[Bowie69]

You TPS maximum is only 56..... have you calibrated the TPS properly?

[Andrew Cleland]

You TPS maximum is only 56..... have you calibrated the TPS properly?

I thought I had, but maybe not. I guess after running through the procedure in Megatune, I then need to save the msq and burn it back into the MS, which I may bot have done.

I'm going to have another go with it now.

[Andrew Cleland]

I thought I had, but maybe not. I guess after running through the procedure in Megatune, I then need to save the msq and burn it back into the MS, which I may bot have done.

I'm going to have another go with it now.

Gah - this thing is driving me around the bend!

So, using Nige's default 3.9 msq I first try to start the engine. It cranks and catches easily enough, then the revs drop and it dies after a second or so. Restarting the engine it runs a tad longer, revs drop, then dies. Repeat this three or four times and it'll run continuously - the revs keep dropping very low but then it picks-up, revs drop, picks-up. As it gets warmer the effect is less dramatic, but even once warm-up enrichment is off, it's still cycling like this:

warming-up-2011jan17 by AC72, on Flickr

I *think* the fact that it dies almost immediately after starting-up is due to the After Start Enrichment not being quite right. Should I be trying to fix this now, or should I wait until I've got it idling well once it's warmed-up before I start to modify the ASE?

I'm more bothered about it not sitting at a steady idle, even when warm. Is this something that can be fixed by tweaking the fuel or ignition maps around the idle point? If so, any tips on how I go about doing this - is it just a case of lowering or increasing bins until I see an improvement? I understand that I should be aiming for a stoich mixture at idle, but I thought the O2 sensor isn't active below 1,300rpm (it's certainly not reading anything in MT at idle) so I'm not sure how I measure this?

On top of that although I'm not seeing the reset and comms drop-outs of yesterday (now that I am back to using the Macbook and the USB to Serial adapter - there must be something dodgy with the Dell laptops power), I'm seeing occasional spikes in all the readings (this is a particularly bad bit, normally there a far fewer spikes):

spikes-2011jan17 by AC72, on Flickr

I imagine this is due to a bad earth or interference from the HT (which is odd as it's EDIS and the HT leads are all well away from any other wires). It's not made any easier by it being dark by the time I'm back from work, but it looks like I need to go through all the earths. All the sensors are individually earthed and brought back to a common earthing point by the MS, which is also connected to the common earth, which is directly connected to the battery negative.

Finally, I'm not convinced the IAV is doing much - it sits at 50% all the time (the max reading of 137% in the graph is due to one of the above spikes):

iav-2011jan17 by AC72, on Flickr

These are the setting in Megatune, which I'm not sure are right - I thought the 2-wire Bosch valve was closed at 30% duty cycle, not 50%:

iav settings by AC72, on Flickr

but, to be honest, I'm not so bothered about the IAV if I can get the rest of the engine running properly & more importantly, MoTable!

Cheers,

AndyC.

[zim]

I'm still new to the workings of MS, but isn't the bosch valve closed at 25% of 100%. Looking at your screen dump you have 50% of 200. Which is theoretically the same ?

G

[Bowie69]

Zim, totally correct! Give yourself a pat on the back

As your IdleDC isn't changing then I suggest that your fuel cells at idle are totally whacky... work out where the engine wants to idle and try setting the 4 cells around that point to the same VE, that should stop it hunting.

Sort the pikes out, honestly, they can't be doing it any good....least worst case is it is screwing up your tuning, worst case is you may end up frying something....

Lastly, go back and re-read Nige's and BBC's tuning posts in the 'uber' thread, remember someone has kindly indexed this for us all

[FridgeFreezer]

The fact the spikes happen across several sensors, including the O2 sensor (no 5v bias) and the MAP sensor inside the MS (behind the idiot proofing), screams that you have some common issue most probably grounding. Are the sensors individually grounded back to the ECU plug, and does the ECU have two or three good (1mmsq) ground wires coming from the plug to a solid ground point (chassis/battery NOT engine block)?

You want to ground the EDIS to the same place, it needs a good solid ground and decent 12v supply.

[Andrew Cleland]

Thanks all.

Zim - thanks for explaining the IAV setting. I must admit I find the settings a bit tricky to work out, for example, what do they mean by 'Frequency (10000/x)' - where does the 10,000 come from, what does the frequency do. Anyhow, it's good to know that the closed dc setting is actually correct.

Bowie - Cheers for the lead on the hunting. I'll get the 4 cells set to an average value which will hopefully keep things steady, then try to tweak them all to get the best manifold vacuum.

FF & Bowie - I'm going to try and get away from work early today so that I have daylight to look at the wiring and see if I can find what's wrong. Looking at previous logs there's no sign of the spikes, so it must be something that's come loose or got damaged. The MS is exposed at the moment while I do the setting-up, so it's not inconceivable that something's been knocked.

The earthing should be fine - all the sensors have separate earths (in 1mm^2 cable) back to a common earthing point by the Megasquirt, there are about 8 separate earths coming off the Megasquirt's DB39 connector also to this common earthing point and then the common earth is wired directly to the battery negative with 2mm^2 cable. This worked fine in the past, so I think something must have got knocked, come loose or similar.

I've read the Megasquirt Megathread a few times now, but I must admit that by the time I get to about page 10, my brain starts to hurt a bit. It's a frustrating thread as there's so much good information in there, it's just a case of finding it - James' index helps a lot, but it's still a struggle for someone with a small brain like me! ;-) I promise that when I get it all running I will have a stab at writing an 'idiot's guide', compiling all the info I used to get it going on the grounds that if I can understand, others should have no problem!

Cheers,

AndyC.

[FridgeFreezer]

all the sensors have separate earths (in 1mm^2 cable) back to a common earthing point by the Megasquirt

It may be OK-ish but it is not ideal, the sensors really want to be connected back to the MS and then the MS grounded separately. The MS's earth wires are passing full injector current so the voltage drop across them will vary, the sensors are not passing much current and are being measured by a high-impedance circuit so are very sensitive to noise. Car manufacturers wouldn't bother putting a separate ground pin on sensors and running the extra wire back to the ECU if they could leave it off.

I frequency is the PWM frequency for the IAV. It's probably not too critical and is in the MSExtra manual. You divide 10,000 by the value in the box to get the resulting PWM frequency that will be output by the ECU, so for example 10,000/200 = 50Hz.

[Andrew Cleland]

It may be OK-ish but it is not ideal, the sensors really want to be connected back to the MS and then the MS grounded separately. The MS's earth wires are passing full injector current so the voltage drop across them will vary, the sensors are not passing much current and are being measured by a high-impedance circuit so are very sensitive to noise. Car manufacturers wouldn't bother putting a separate ground pin on sensors and running the extra wire back to the ECU if they could leave it off.

That would make sense. It's been a while since I looked inside the box, but it's actually ringing a bell that I did send all the sensor grounds back into the MS - I'll check this afternoon.

I frequency is the PWM frequency for the IAV. It's probably not too critical and is in the MSExtra manual. You divide 10,000 by the value in the box to get the resulting PWM frequency that will be output by the ECU, so for example 10,000/200 = 50Hz.

Thanks. TBH I think I probably need to read-up on PWM as although I understand the concept, the practise is less clear to me!

Cheers,

AndyC.

[FridgeFreezer]

I think I probably need to read-up on PWM as although I understand the concept, the practise is less clear to me!

It's not complex and you don't need to know much about it for this. It's basically what the MS already does with the injectors to control the amount of fuel going in, you vary the ratio of time spent switched on versus switched off. Frequency is how often you change from on to off.

[Hybrid_From_Hell]

Andrew

Few simple things

ONLY LOG when temp is up to 72+ Degrees, not from cold - MLV will filter out these lower temp values as they are invalid - engine needs to be out of warm up and the lambda warmed up, so ONLY switch on dataloging when warm

2nd - on starting the 3 x attempts are due to WUE & ASE

ASE is basically how much extra fuel to show in on start up, normally for 17 SECONDS or less, and is linked to heat, so switch on see what MLV is showing as both initial value (and V8s like a big lump twice) and then the heat settings and twaek - you get one go a day

WUE is linked to the VE, so change the VE and you change the WUE. say the cell value on the VE is 100, and the WUE table the arrow shows 120, that means read 100 from table and add 20%

Now, if you have done some tuning, and the table now says 80, the system will say take 80 and add 20% so use 96 not 120 as fuelling

So, best bet is to get the VE table right, then get it to start up from cold and run, and then tune WUE

3rd Resets don't affect fuelling issues, resets can either be mechanical - ie a bad earth connection, or fuelling - ie lean stalling.

If you wnat to get the engine warm, and do a 3 mins decent log and email it to me I am happy to check it all over

Its often the basic simple things that cause big issues, small issues make little differences, so don't get to far into the detail

PWM settings are well wrong, 25% is closed, send me your MSQ I will set to more basic / correct values

HTH

Nige

[FridgeFreezer]

Starting is affected by cranking pulsewidths, ASE, and then WUE in that order.

Cranking pulsewidths are exactly that - the ECU ignores the map and just opens the injectors for a certain time based on the temperature of the engine.

Once RPM has coughed above cranking RPM (engine has caught) then ASE (After Start Enrichment) is added to the calculated fuel value, either for a given time or for a given number of engine cycles. WUE (WarmUp Enrichment) is added to the fuel map based on coolant temperature.

All enrichments are cumulative (once running / out of cranking) - the MS starts with the fuel map, and multiplies the VE number by any enrichments which are active (most default to 100% = no enrichment, 110% being 10% enrichment and 90% being 10% lean). So, after start you have a VE value, multiply it by WUE, then multiply that by ASE and a few others too (air temp correction, accel, etc...) and then squirt that much fuel in.

[Andrew Cleland]

Thanks both - good to get lots of replies to my questions :-)

I'll take a look at ASE and see if I can work-out why it's not doing the job. Looking at my old fuel table (which did start and run OK, but was messy) the fueling looks richer on the old table, so if I look at the old MSQ and what the fueling with ASE was on that, I should be able to modify the ASE in the current MSQ to bring the fueling up to similar values to the old table (if that makes sense!).

MSQ is (shortly) heading your way Nige - thanks. I'll hopefully be able to send you a log this afternoon as well - much appreciated.

AndyC.