National Challenge League ideas

[simonr]

I agree that the low attendance is caused to a significant degree by the fuel cost. I think at the same time, based on the popularity of other events like the Challenger series, that there are more people interested in a straightforward challenge series than a speed centric event - sadly.

I have a suggestion which would take a group such as the AWDC to organise and probably one of the magazine to publicise and promote it.

What about some kind of national league? If we could agree a set of rules and a scoring system that local clubs as well as AWDC could adhere to where you compete in a number of events wherever is most convenient or closest to you throughout the year. Your placing in the events within your class contributes to a national league table. This gives the magazine something to tie all the events they report on, making it more worthwhile reporting smaller or further flung events.

At the end of the year, the series culminates in a national championship, somewhere big like Kirton or Walters that can accommodate more than 40 teams. Entries would be based on the top 40 (or however many you can accomodate) over the year based on say your best five events.

The winners of that truly would be the best of the best. It could be organised in a press, spectator and competitor friendly way - similar to the Belgium National of old.

It could attract traders and decent sponsorship for the national.

I've spoken to the editor of one of the Magazines about this and they seemed very enthusiastic.

What do you reckon? It would reduce the requirement to travel distance thus reducing costs, it ties many events together - increasing the importance of any event who signs up to the regulations. And it gives us a single, high profile event which could give the sport some much needed positive publicity - and be quite fun too!

Si

[redrodant]

I agree that the low attendance is caused to a significant degree by the fuel cost. I think at the same time, based on the popularity of other events like the Challenger series, that there are more people interested in a straightforward challenge series than a speed centric event - sadly.

I have a suggestion which would take a group such as the AWDC to organise and probably one of the magazine to publicise and promote it.

What about some kind of national league? If we could agree a set of rules and a scoring system that local clubs as well as AWDC could adhere to where you compete in a number of events wherever is most convenient or closest to you throughout the year. Your placing in the events within your class contributes to a national league table. This gives the magazine something to tie all the events they report on, making it more worthwhile reporting smaller or further flung events.

At the end of the year, the series culminates in a national championship, somewhere big like Kirton or Walters that can accommodate more than 40 teams. Entries would be based on the top 40 (or however many you can accomodate) over the year based on say your best five events.

The winners of that truly would be the best of the best. It could be organised in a press, spectator and competitor friendly way - similar to the Belgium National of old.

It could attract traders and decent sponsorship for the national.

I've spoken to the editor of one of the Magazines about this and they seemed very enthusiastic.

What do you reckon? It would reduce the requirement to travel distance thus reducing costs, it ties many events together - increasing the importance of any event who signs up to the regulations. And it gives us a single, high profile event which could give the sport some much needed positive publicity - and be quite fun too!

Si

Exelent idea , all you need now is to pull together loads of different clubs,get them all to agree a class system, a scoreing system,get entrants to actually enter, ect. Good luck with that 1. Any volinteers

[simonr]

Exelent idea , all you need now is to pull together loads of different clubs,get them all to agree a class system, a scoreing system,get entrants to actually enter, ect. Good luck with that 1. Any volinteers

You may be right - it's probably not worth bothering to try to solve the situation.

It doesn't even need a single set of rules - I think if you just use a score based on your position in an event, although you would get the odd anomaly - it would all sort itself out in the final event. You could assign the points based on the number of people entering in your class in an event - so with 10 people in your class,you get 10 points for first place but if you are the only one in your class, you only get one point. That way you would not be able to get to the final by only entering small events.

Si

[mr whippy]

i agree si with the bulk of the idea and i talked briefly about it with you a slindon. some promoters or clubs will be quite happy with the entry numbers and standard of event that they are already putting on. (e.g mud monsters series?) and might not see any need for change but others with poor turn out will or should look for change, which is good. the thing is to try and get say the top say 8 uk challenge clubs / promoters to agree to give it a go. if they run a 3 event series event or a 10 event series it does not matter, simply the top 5 placed truck from each are entered into the final, be it 1 standard & 4 modified or 3 super mod and 2 standard whatever combo of 5 trucks is down to the club and members to sort out amongst themselves, (some series might not have any standard cars to choose from) where & who put on the final at the first year could drawn from straws and the following year determined by the results from the previous year. deciding truck class system could be set out by a competitor poll say 3 classes. the only issue i see is some are msa and some are not? but i think its a great idea and it could even be offered to clubs in europe if the uk cannot get 40 trucks up together almost like a european cup! lol!

[redrodant]

i agree si with the bulk of the idea and i talked briefly about it with you a slindon. some promoters or clubs will be quite happy with the entry numbers and standard of event that they are already putting on. (e.g mud monsters series?) and might not see any need for change but others with poor turn out will or should look for change, which is good. the thing is to try and get say the top say 8 uk challenge clubs / promoters to agree to give it a go. if they run a 3 event series event or a 10 event series it does not matter, simply the top 5 placed truck from each are entered into the final, be it 1 standard & 4 modified or 3 super mod and 2 standard whatever combo of 5 trucks is down to the club and members to sort out amongst themselves, (some series might not have any standard cars to choose from) where & who put on the final at the first year could drawn from straws and the following year determined by the results from the previous year. deciding truck class system could be set out by a competitor poll say 3 classes. the only issue i see is some are msa and some are not? but i think its a great idea and it could even be offered to clubs in europe if the uk cannot get 40 trucks up together almost like a european cup! lol!

Actually ive been thinking about this "si u may be onto summett" actually all that actually needs to happen is enough of the "event organisers to agree on some basic common points", i think there are enough on here to do it. Any thoughts ??

[najw]

You may be right - it's probably not worth bothering to try to solve the situation.

It doesn't even need a single set of rules - I think if you just use a score based on your position in an event, although you would get the odd anomaly - it would all sort itself out in the final event. You could assign the points based on the number of people entering in your class in an event - so with 10 people in your class,you get 10 points for first place but if you are the only one in your class, you only get one point. That way you would not be able to get to the final by only entering small events.

Si

As I see it there are two ideas forming here.

The first is the League Table. In my view you only need two sets of data to administer a league: Classification and Achievement. The classes don't even need to be the same as the event organisers use as long as the teams can be classified accurately. You could have Green v Non-Green, or the more conventional Difflocks, winches etc,

The Achievement Data is sourced from each qualifying event and consists of punches, sections, SS Times whatever which is then applied to each team within the appropriate classification. It is purely an administrative exercise in manipulating data. Hence the popularity of the Fantasy Leagues a few years ago, reapplying real-world achievements to ficticious teams and classes. As I see it the only way to make money out of it would be to charge teams to be part of the League in return for the accolades at the end of the season. Or a sponsor to pay for the admin and provide prizes at the end.

I guess this is how they do things in circuit racing where one race can contribute seperate points to multiple championships.

The second idea is the playoff event, I think Simon's idea of getting the top players in the league to pitch head to head against one another is a simple enough format. However this is where standards of experience and laying out style between the various series would probably raise its ugly head!

[Daan]

I think trying to merge championships together is a good idea. If you only do local rounds of 3 championships you are otherwise collecting points in 3 championships which all go to waste, because you cant do very well in any of them.

But to get 3 championships to agree on a set of regulations is like nailing jelly to a wall, because no one is going to give an inch.

Now we are back to the age old problem were everyone does its own thing. I expected that the MSA involvement would have helped here, but that has not worked out like that, and it appears 99% of the competitors run a mile from anyone even mentioning it. I think if all clubs can unite into something, whatever it is called, it would help the sport.

These are more generalizations, but I reckon Mudmonsters has a format that people seem to like and regulations that make sense.

If other clubs follow suit we can have a championship that works.

Daan

[mr whippy]

I think trying to merge championships together is a good idea. If you only do local rounds of 3 championships you are otherwise collecting points in 3 championships which all go to waste, because you cant do very well in any of them.

But to get 3 championships to agree on a set of regulations is like nailing jelly to a wall, because no one is going to give an inch.

Now we are back to the age old problem were everyone does its own thing. I expected that the MSA involvement would have helped here, but that has not worked out like that, and it appears 99% of the competitors run a mile from anyone even mentioning it. I think if all clubs can unite into something, whatever it is called, it would help the sport.

These are more generalizations, but I reckon Mudmonsters has a format that people seem to like and regulations that make sense.

If other clubs follow suit we can have a championship that works.

Daan

agreed, i think a set of vechicle regs set out would be a good start, surely 4 classes of vehicle would be enough for anyone. i would have hoped that the top clubs could agree on something msa spec or not. im pretty new to this scene and cannot understand why the vehicle class system is so vague??

[Matt BADLRC]

As I see it there are two ideas forming here.

The first is the League Table. In my view you only need two sets of data to administer a league: Classification and Achievement. The classes don't even need to be the same as the event organisers use as long as the teams can be classified accurately. You could have Green v Non-Green, or the more conventional Difflocks, winches etc,

The Achievement Data is sourced from each qualifying event and consists of punches, sections, SS Times whatever which is then applied to each team within the appropriate classification. It is purely an administrative exercise in manipulating data. Hence the popularity of the Fantasy Leagues a few years ago, reapplying real-world achievements to ficticious teams and classes. As I see it the only way to make money out of it would be to charge teams to be part of the League in return for the accolades at the end of the season. Or a sponsor to pay for the admin and provide prizes at the end.

I guess this is how they do things in circuit racing where one race can contribute seperate points to multiple championships.

The second idea is the playoff event, I think Simon's idea of getting the top players in the league to pitch head to head against one another is a simple enough format. However this is where standards of experience and laying out style between the various series would probably raise its ugly head!

Neil

We could come up with something and work together if needed I think for a championship

[najw]

agreed, i think a set of vechicle regs set out would be a good start, surely 4 classes of vehicle would be enough for anyone. i would have hoped that the top clubs could agree on something msa spec or not. im pretty new to this scene and cannot understand why the vehicle class system is so vague??

Some clubs like to encourage things some like to ban things. That's the way it is. The MSA have no say in class structure in any discipline to my knowledge

[najw]

Mods any chance you could split this into a separate thread at SimonR's post as it's not directly relevant to the XL update thread ?

[mr whippy]

Some clubs like to encourage things some like to ban things. That's the way it is. The MSA have no say in class structure in any discipline to my knowledge

sorry i meant the same class structure for cars competing in challenge events for msa or non msa clubs. ie if you car is a class 2 car and complys with a msa club, surely it should be a class 2 truck at a non msa club?

[mr whippy]

Mods any chance you could split this into a separate thread at SimonR's post as it's not directly relevant to the XL update thread ?

agreed neil this is an important topic that should have its own thread.

[simonr]

As I see it, what I'm proposing is a hybrid of the two ideas Neil posted.

During the year, you run something similar to a fantasy league on line and in the mags. At the end of your season, you have a play-off between the best rated competitors in your league.

The only thing that needs to be agreed between participating events is the class structure - and to be honest there's not much to call it between them. Even if the organisers of local events keep the data about what class teams would be in if they used the 'super-league' classes - then they can use whatever classes they like for the event.

It doesn't matter how hard or easy a given event is because all you are doing is sorting the enterents into order of goodness for that event. Your score in the league is simply the number of people in your class minus your position. That way, regardless of the event, you get 1 point for each team you beat.

That way, you cannot get into the final by entering loads of little events where you are guaranteed to win (by being the only one in your class) as you will not get enough points - all you get is the glory of 'winning' that event.

If the final were run under the same MSA rules that Challenger operate for everything but the 'proto' class where you abandon the MOT requirement. Then for the competitors who have run in at different class for the year without an MOT - allow them to swap their point total to the proto class if they want to and compete in that for the final. That way it is about as inclusive as it can be and allows novel vehicle development - so long as you are competitive in what you have built.

I would abandon the MSA speed event requirements as per the XL Series as the consensus seems to lean toward traditional challenge type events. If in time there were enough speed events / teams, then incorporate that as a separate class in the final with some different sections to everyone else.

In conclusion, any event wanting to be a part of the league does not need to agree to any rule changes - only that they supply the data to the league with teams separated into the appropriate classes for the league.

The league itself isn't intended to be a money making exercise - just a means of building the sport and making it worth entering any participating event. That alone will change the fortunes of the events or series who participate.

The final would be sponsored as most bigger events currently are. However, I would like to see the sponsorship money go to things like advertising, hospitality and prizes rather than to swell the coffers of the AWDC or whoever. I imagine that the league would carry advertising for the sponsors of the final event but being a much bigger event - the number and variety of sponsors could be greater.

Si

[redrodant]

As I see it, what I'm proposing is a hybrid of the two ideas Neil posted.

During the year, you run something similar to a fantasy league on line and in the mags. At the end of your season, you have a play-off between the best rated competitors in your league.

The only thing that needs to be agreed between participating events is the class structure - and to be honest there's not much to call it between them. Even if the organisers of local events keep the data about what class teams would be in if they used the 'super-league' classes - then they can use whatever classes they like for the event.

It doesn't matter how hard or easy a given event is because all you are doing is sorting the enterents into order of goodness for that event. Your score in the league is simply the number of people in your class minus your position. That way, regardless of the event, you get 1 point for each team you beat.

That way, you cannot get into the final by entering loads of little events where you are guaranteed to win (by being the only one in your class) as you will not get enough points - all you get is the glory of 'winning' that event.

If the final were run under the same MSA rules that Challenger operate for everything but the 'proto' class where you abandon the MOT requirement. Then for the competitors who have run in at different class for the year without an MOT - allow them to swap their point total to the proto class if they want to and compete in that for the final. That way it is about as inclusive as it can be and allows novel vehicle development - so long as you are competitive in what you have built.

I would abandon the MSA speed event requirements as per the XL Series as the consensus seems to lean toward traditional challenge type events. If in time there were enough speed events / teams, then incorporate that as a separate class in the final with some different sections to everyone else.

In conclusion, any event wanting to be a part of the league does not need to agree to any rule changes - only that they supply the data to the league with teams separated into the appropriate classes for the league.

The league itself isn't intended to be a money making exercise - just a means of building the sport and making it worth entering any participating event. That alone will change the fortunes of the events or series who participate.

The final would be sponsored as most bigger events currently are. However, I would like to see the sponsorship money go to things like advertising, hospitality and prizes rather than to swell the coffers of the AWDC or whoever. I imagine that the league would carry advertising for the sponsors of the final event but being a much bigger event - the number and variety of sponsors could be greater.

Si

OK this is actually sounding sort of promasing so far, Wats everyones thoughts on a MSA Challenge championship thingy,

[najw]

As I see it, what I'm proposing is a hybrid of the two ideas Neil posted.

Si

Not my ideas Simon I was just looking at your suggestions from an alternative perspective.

[treebloke]

Sounds interesting

[Mark]

Mods any chance you could split this into a separate thread at SimonR's post as it's not directly relevant to the XL update thread ?

Topic split for you Neil.

Mark

[FridgeFreezer]

Sounds a like a great idea in principle - as has been said, could be like herding cats but could also be excellent if it works.

I really like the system they use in the Finnish dirt racing (as featured on Top Gear some time back) where there is an agreed fixed value for the cars and at the event any other competitor can demand to buy your car from your for that value. As I see it, that puts paid to the biggest barrier for many - the battle of the chequebooks. There are people out there who can and do throw more money at a season's challenging than some people's houses are worth, and in the face of that there's not much your average grass roots punter can do about it to compete.

If you had a few classes (eg 2k, 5k, 10k) then your average joe can enter a £500 Range Rover and still put in a good showing, whereas your chequebook brigade have to either stand to lose a lot of money or downgrade and learn to drive. Likewise, the shed-based tinkerers can execute clever mods for no money and the chequebook boys either have to (again) take a risk and pay for mods, or buy the modded vehicle from the guy with the skills and put money into the pocket of the guy who built it, who potentially then makes a good profit from his skills and comes back even stronger.

You don't need to ban anything or classify based on equipment - anyone entering the £2k class with £5k's worth of lockers and winches stands to lose out before they're off the start line, the incentive will be to do as well as possible with as little as possible. Someone who makes their own winch or locker stands less of a risk as anyone buying their car potentially would not be able to manufacture spares.

It's not the ultimate answer but I think it has a lot going for it. Necessity being the mother of invention I suspect it would stimulate some very interesting engineering & a greater focus on driver skill & teamwork than is currently the case.

...let the bunfight commence!

[robhybrid]

This idea gets my vote.

certainly in principal.

How many events to qualify?

What if you enter odd events in different areas?

There are some people on here who have ability and access to enable them to build an excellent challenge truck for minimal cost.

There are others who pay someone do do it for them.

Is it fair to claim one is better than the other?

[FridgeFreezer]

Is it fair to claim one is better than the other?

Not at all, and that's not really how it works anyway. People can build, prep, service and repair a car themselves for minimal outlay or they can pay someone to do it for them, the cars could wind up exactly the same and worth exactly the same. What it would stop is one car having £20k's worth of fast winches, big tyres, big V8, etc. etc. that you can't whittle out of thin air for free.

The guy who spends a year locked in the shed whittling an uber-winch from scratch has as much to lose as the guy who splashes his cash on one off-the-shelf, both have gained an advantage and in both cases that can be bought out from under them if someone else feels it's worth it. Per category I think it would balance fairly well and leave things more down to driver/team skill. Hell, you could have a £50k category, I can well imagine a few enterprising tinkerers having a pop at it in sub-5k hardware, and who'd begrudge that?

[redrodant]

Some random thoughts

MSA only recognise 2 classes, of challenge trucks. So what about trucks that thay don't recognise ie non msa speck cages.

Mot shouldn.t matter, just set some sensable class's based on vehicle ability.

Event organisers run there events to cater for there competitors, and are unlikly to want to change there format.

Competitors arn't all going to want to enter a national, so entry should be optional, ie u need to qualify in some way?

These Challenge trucks are usually peoples pride and joy, the bying it for a few quid idea "alough i actually quite like the idea in principle" would actually put people off.

Why make money out of it??. Surly pride should be enough motivation for all concerned !?.

The idea of qualifying locally is good, as events that involve travel seem to be unattended "xl".

Ps

This seeMs to be the most productive thread yet on events here EVER.

[simonr]

I didn't know MSA only recognise two classes - but I doubt it's set in stone.

Undoubtedly there will be people who enter events who are not interested in the league and people who are listed in the league who cannot attend a national. For the league, probably under data protection rules, there has to be the option to opt out of being listed in magazines or on line - but that's fairly easy.

For the final, you decide how many teams you can support and invite that number from the top of the league. If someone says they cannot attend - you invite the next one in the list until you have a full field. I think it would also be worth having a couple of wild-card entries voted for on line. Perhaps someone new to the sport who has not had time to enter enough events, or someone who has just built an interesting truck and has potential?

Si

[najw]

The MSA's definitions are not classes, they are vehicle standards which organisers may adopt in their Technical Regulations.

Road Legal Challenge Vehicle or Challenge Special.

[mr whippy]

.

For the final, you decide how many teams you can support and invite that number from the top of the league. If someone says they cannot attend - you invite the next one in the list until you have a full field. I think it would also be worth having a couple of wild-card entries voted for on line. Perhaps someone new to the sport who has not had time to enter enough events, or someone who has just built an interesting truck and has potential?

Si

perfect idea si & there should not be any reason as to why people cant enter other events, than just the ones their club holds.