argh help

[Gromit]

In my quest to find out why my 200tdi was so slow, I've made it much worse.

I removed the top plate on the FIP to see if the diaphram was split.

Thinking I would remove the diaphram to look at it more closely, I put a spanner on the 10mm nut in the centre of the plate that retains the diaphram and turned before realising my error, and saw the alignment dot on the plate.

I turned it back to where I though it might have been, checked the diaphram wasn't split and reassembled.

I now have absolutely no power.

From idle, flooring the throttle, the revs take about 6-8 seconds to get to full throttle. Max speed in 4th is about 30-40mph.

What have I done?

many thanks for any info

edited to say that power at idle is also nonexistant - letting out the clutch at idle will almost stall it. I could previously pull down trees at idle!!

[Guest diesel_jim]

That diaphram operated the fuelling on "turbo boost", so just remove the top of the pump and turn it clockwise some more, about 90degrees

you can pull it out, if you do, you'll see that it's a kind of "sawtooth" shape where the fuelling plunger touches on, so if you turn it "too far" it'll go from lots of fuel, to nothing, then (as you continue to turn) back up to max fuel and so on.

just a case of playing really and seeing what feels best.

[Gromit]

Cheers Jim.

I tried playing with it a few times and no real change. Will see if I can remove it and see what else I might have moved.

Is the screw in the cover that I've removed (covered by a small cap) the smoke screw then?

[perv]

The torx screw with a 13mm lock nut in the centre of the top cover is the non boost fuel adjustment, below that inside the top cover is the diaphragm as you know but below the diaphragm there is a eccentric plunger but to one side of that is small pin which abutts the fulcrum lever which controls the fuel.

Now to my point, if you pull out the diaphragm you might draw the pin from it's bore which could cause you your problems.

[Gromit]

That diaphram operated the fuelling on "turbo boost", so just remove the top of the pump and turn it clockwise some more, about 90degrees

you can pull it out, if you do, you'll see that it's a kind of "sawtooth" shape where the fuelling plunger touches on, so if you turn it "too far" it'll go from lots of fuel, to nothing, then (as you continue to turn) back up to max fuel and so on.

just a case of playing really and seeing what feels best.

Now it is kinda dark, I understand how it should work but I don't see how it does!

Turning the diaphram, plate and spring doesn't change the amount of travel the diaphram can move up and down.

Also can't see how to remove it. Does the nut holding the diaphram retaining plate have to be removed?

[BogMonster]

You can pull the diaphragm right out on a 300 with no problems - 200 is prob the same - and if you take it out you will see a wear mark on the offset pin where the fuel pin or whatever you call it rubbed up and down as the diaphragm moved, there will be a shiny line on the offset pin. On a 300 this should be facing the front of the engine to get it back to the same spot, a 200 is probably the same.

[Andy]

you cant see how it works till you remove it. even then you can only see half the system. its the same as a 300 so follow bogmonsters advice. from memory the standard setting was the 'dot' towards the engine, but if you've loosened that nut on the diaphram i'd lift it all out & look for a wear mark, or maybe just a grove in the grease. the pin comes from the front of the engine, so you'll have a mark where it is now & there should be another mark where it was. if you dont think the nut came loose just set the dot closest to the engine block as this seems to be the basic setting.

it will pull out, just needs a bit of a tug at first. needs a shove to get it in the last bit when you replace it as well.

if you've fiddled with the smoke adjuster screw - the one in the cap that can be accessed from outside then that will effect the whole power curve.

the diaphram moves down with boost pressure to increase the amount of fuel the pump can pump. however the base setting ie - power off boost is set by that smoke adjuster screw. this will also affect the on boost power as the diaphram will move the same amount as normal but it will be starting a point of much lower flow.

in your place i'd try to reset the diaphram to what appears to be the original setting & see how it goes.

hmm just reread your post, you've taken the smoke adjuster screw out? bet you didnt count the turns did you? in that case reset the diaphram, then wind the smoke adjuster in a few turns & test. continue winding it in till it feels right. you should notice that the idle increases once the smoke adjuster is in enough.

[cols110]

Yep what Bogmonster and Andy said.

To get the diaphram out, you need to remove the screw fdw and lwr of it and the pin in there retains the cone shaped bit that retains the diaphram, if this pin is corroded which does happen it wont allow the diaphram to come out so squirt it with WD40 wiggle the diaphram up and down whilst moving the pin in and out until it all come out. This pin was the problem with mine and about 10 other vehicles in the Camel Trophey Owners Club, if it is stuck then you wont get the extra required fuel when the boost increases, leaving you with a very flat un-responsive engine. The as Bogmonster mention you will see the wear marks on the cone t re-align it with, and yes the 200 and 300 are the same sort of set up.

[Guest diesel_jim]

I forgot to add......

when/if you do pull that whole plunger thing out, you'll find a white plastic ring at the top of it.

If you remove that, then the plunger will be able to go down further, giving more fuelling and more power.

this is one of the "tricks" that people do when they charge you £600 to "optimise" your pump...

[BogMonster]

I did that on my old one Jim but it didn't seem to make any difference.

£600 to throw something away blimey I am in the wrong business

Just a note of caution on the "dot" - I disassembled a number of pumps - took the lid off to have a look without touching the diaphragm position - when I was trying to reset my old 90 to original settings at one stage, and I found the dots were all over the place! I assume that they are not manufactured consistently (hey big surprise there then!) the most common I found is somewhere in the 10-11 o'clock position as you look at it, but I also saw ones that were down in the lower right quadrant about 4 o'clock , and some at about 7 o'clock! All vehicles that I know would never have been touched - so it pays to just note the starting position and not read too much in to its exact location!

As Cols said a good squirt of WD40 or similar is a good idea, I found my old one was quite dry and had a bit of corrosion in there. New one is not far from the end of the warranty so a bit of fiddling and a chat with Allisport is imminent I think :)

[BogMonster]

Gromit I hadn't thought of it before, but once you get the diaphragm sorted out again, check the boost pipe that runs from the injector pump round to the turbo, I have seen vehicles where this is split, dislodged or chafed through and if you lose the boost pressure to the diaphragm it drives more or less like a 2.5 naturally asthmatic i.e. not very quick at all

[Guest diesel_jim]

Gromit I hadn't thought of it before, but once you get the diaphragm sorted out again, check the boost pipe that runs from the injector pump round to the turbo, I have seen vehicles where this is split, dislodged or chafed through and if you lose the boost pressure to the diaphragm it drives more or less like a 2.5 naturally asthmatic i.e. not very quick at all

also on my one, the little "finger" plunger thing that actually operates the fuelling has siezed up (the breather on the FiP was letting water in), so the thing steadily got worse, until it was like driving a 2.25 diesel towing a house.

I pulled the diaphram out and squirted plenty of WD40 in there, using a screwdriver to move the finger back and forwards (think i had to keep operating the throttle linkage to move it back out)

eventually it free'd off and all was well.

[Gromit]

To get the diaphram out, you need to remove the screw fdw and lwr of it and the pin in there retains the cone shaped bit that retains the diaphram, if this pin is corroded which does happen it wont allow the diaphram to come out so squirt it with WD40 wiggle the diaphram up and down whilst moving the pin in and out until it all come out.

Cheers for all the info and thanks for bearing with me guys. Peeking under the diaphram, it looks a bit dry and corroded.

I still can't see how to remove the diaphram and plunger. (I'm definately a tool, just maybe not the sharpest!). Forward of the diaphram is the throttle linkage. I can't see a likely screw/pin that retains it?

Could someone tell me what type of screw it is?

[Guest diesel_jim]

I can't see a likely screw/pin that retains it?

Could someone tell me what type of screw it is?

It's not retained in any way, it should pull up out. the "finger" bit that pushes on the plunger is spring loaded, so if you "pull" the diaphram and plunger "upwards", then it just needs to overcome the pressure that the spring and finger thing is applying to the plunger.

If it's being really stubborn, then it's likely that the finger has siezed in place.

If you can hang on until friday, i'm picking up a FIP from young Mr Warne, so i'll sit it on the workbench and take some pictures of it, showing how to get the plunger out (and the adjustments for extra fuelling)

[Gromit]

It's not retained in any way, it should pull up out. the "finger" bit that pushes on the plunger is spring loaded, so if you "pull" the diaphram and plunger "upwards", then it just needs to overcome the pressure that the spring and finger thing is applying to the plunger.

If it's being really stubborn, then it's likely that the finger has siezed in place.

If you can hang on until friday, i'm picking up a FIP from young Mr Warne, so i'll sit it on the workbench and take some pictures of it, showing how to get the plunger out (and the adjustments for extra fuelling)

thanks for that jim. I'll have another look and lash in lots of WD40.

I need it going for a 140 mile commute tomorrow. Might take a while at 40mph

Pics would be great for the tech archive though, as there's lots of info on tweaking, but not many pics.

[Ivan]

Fuel pump tweeking with pics can be found here.

HTH

Ivan

[Gromit]

Cheers for the photos.

Here's the latest. Moving the diaphram 90 degrees each time has no effect what so ever on the throttle response. I checked the cone is actually moving round with the diaphram.

Flooring the throttle from idle does nothing for about 1 second then takes about 6 seconds to creep to full revs.

I can't remove the diaphram. I've been soaking it in WD40 since last night and even levering it up looks like it's going to bend something.

I assume the pin at the bottom of the diaphram cone is siezed.

Any further ideas?

[Turbocharger]

It's idling ok, or slower than previously? Did it occur exactly when you took the pump apart? It sounds like the same performance I got from mine when I backed the main fuel screw off 2 turns (on the rear face of the pump, before you take the top off to get to the diaphragm at all) to pass the MoT.

[Gromit]

It's idling ok, or slower than previously? Did it occur exactly when you took the pump apart? It sounds like the same performance I got from mine when I backed the main fuel screw off 2 turns (on the rear face of the pump, before you take the top off to get to the diaphragm at all) to pass the MoT.

starts and idles exactly as before. Yep, happened after I moved the diaphram. I haven't touched anything else on the pump.

I suspect something else has moved below the diaphram.

[Gromit]

replying to myself now - this IS bad!

ok, I removed the plate containing the diaphram from the top of the plunger, along with the spring. I fired it up.

Moving the plunger to various positions from top to bottom, while flooring the throttle has no effect wahtsoever. Still takes about 6 seconds to get to full revs.

So either the fuelling pin has sheared off and is blocking the plunger, or it has siezed.

Anyone any ideas how to get to the fuelling pin?

[BogMonster]

Anyone any ideas how to get to the fuelling pin?

9" grinder

Sounds like the pin is seized or broken, I did know somebody who stripped one right down once with just such a problem but have never done it myself I am afraid.

[western]

Time to get the pump off & visit the nearest [bosch] diesel specialist.

[Gromit]

9" grinder

Don't tempt me!!

<sigh> I really didn't need this

serves me right for pokin at it.

[Turbocharger]

No, it's still quite fixable by the sounds. Have you got a digicam?

When you start the engine, does it take a few more turns than normal to 'catch' and fire?

Pull the diaphragm out - can you see the 'finger' follower inside the pump? It sounds like it's bent or broken. If you can see it, kick the engine over and let it idle - any change when you move the follower gently with a screwdriver?

[Gromit]

No, it's still quite fixable by the sounds. Have you got a digicam?

When you start the engine, does it take a few more turns than normal to 'catch' and fire?

Pull the diaphragm out - can you see the 'finger' follower inside the pump? It sounds like it's bent or broken. If you can see it, kick the engine over and let it idle - any change when you move the follower gently with a screwdriver?

The engine starts as normal. The problem is that I can't get the diaphram plunger out. It slides up and down, but won't slide out.

(Nope, I don't have a digicam. )