Anyone have any experience of Taig / Peatol mini-mills?

[Ed Poore]

As per the subject - does anyone have any personal experience of the Taig (distributed under the brand Peatol in the UK) mini-mills? Basically we're interested in a reasonably small CNC mill for the family electronics business (cutting heat-sinks and panels etc).

Seen some decent comments about it but thought I'd ask here on the off-chance anybody has used one - or have any alternative recommendations. Obviously the bigger the better as with almost everything but there's a limited budget available and the size of the Taig is probably about the smallest we want to go (~9"x7"x5" IIRC).

Regarding the CNC aspect the ideal situation would be where we can use it in a manual mode whilst still configured for CNC. The controller side of things matters not a jot (in fact it'd probably be more of a hindrance since a custom controller would likely be built) - so basically as long as stepper motors can be mounted relatively easily that's all that matters.

[TSD]

I've got a old Peatol, converted to CNC. Mine's a pretty old machine, and the newer ones have some siginificant improvements in the ways (better Z axis, better gib adjustment, adjustable lead nuts etc.)

It's a good stiff machine for it's size, easily good enough to produce good results in Alu. and plastics, for the sort of thing it sounds like you want it to do (I'm in the electronics business too). I can get backlash down to 1-2thou easily enough.

I can't comment on the Taig sourced cnc setup - I bought mine part converted (badly) to CNC. The X & Y motor mounts were home made, the Z axis wasn't converted at all. I remade all the mounts to a workable setup, and now I can get decent results, I'm using the mill to make new motor mounts for all three axes. I'm also making my own microstep stepper drivers to replace the half step drivers that were included in the sale.

I think the biggest problem with the Taig for your use is the maximum spindle speed (depending on the exact build) is limited to something between 10k and 2800rpm. I was limited to 2800, so I fitted a Kress 25k spindle, giving me a range of between 5k and 25k (and a lot more power), much more suitable for cutting ali and doing fine work and engraving.

If you use the standard motor setup, the ER16 spindle is a good choice, easier to find a range of collets when you want spares. Alternatively A2ZCNC do some nice endmill holder for either the Taig or ER16 spindles.

If I were buying new for small work in Alu., I would probably look hard at the mid size Proxon mills. A mate has the MF70 and the mid sized one (230?) for electronics work, and seems very happy with both of them.

[ejparrott]

For CNC have a chat with Arc Euro Trade of Leicester, they have a website.

[Ed Poore]

I've got a old Peatol, converted to CNC. Mine's a pretty old machine, and the newer ones have some siginificant improvements in the ways (better Z axis, better gib adjustment, adjustable lead nuts etc.)

It's a good stiff machine for it's size, easily good enough to produce good results in Alu. and plastics, for the sort of thing it sounds like you want it to do (I'm in the electronics business too). I can get backlash down to 1-2thou easily enough.

I can't comment on the Taig sourced cnc setup - I bought mine part converted (badly) to CNC. The X & Y motor mounts were home made, the Z axis wasn't converted at all. I remade all the mounts to a workable setup, and now I can get decent results, I'm using the mill to make new motor mounts for all three axes. I'm also making my own microstep stepper drivers to replace the half step drivers that were included in the sale.

I think the biggest problem with the Taig for your use is the maximum spindle speed (depending on the exact build) is limited to something between 10k and 2800rpm. I was limited to 2800, so I fitted a Kress 25k spindle, giving me a range of between 5k and 25k (and a lot more power), much more suitable for cutting ali and doing fine work and engraving.

If you use the standard motor setup, the ER16 spindle is a good choice, easier to find a range of collets when you want spares. Alternatively A2ZCNC do some nice endmill holder for either the Taig or ER16 spindles.

If I were buying new for small work in Alu., I would probably look hard at the mid size Proxon mills. A mate has the MF70 and the mid sized one (230?) for electronics work, and seems very happy with both of them.

The spindle speed was one of the things that we'd noted although looking at the pics it looks easy enough to adapt the drive system to something else. One option that presented itself was possibly building an attachment for a Dremel like tool so that PCBs could be drilled out via CNC if required (the majority of the stuff is now surface mount but the odd power-supply component is still through-hole).

I'd come across the Proxxon stuff before but was initially discarded because of the lack of CNC however I hadn't seen the "bigger" mills which I've just come across on Axminster's website - they look a bit more viable, the initial one we saw (the MF70 looked a little small for what we wanted) however there are a number which look a bit bigger and at a slightly cheaper price than the Peatol.

You say you'd have gone for a Proxxon for alu work is that simply down to the spindle speeds that you can get out of the Peatol / Taig or are the Proxxon's "better built" i.e. less issues with backlash or rather accuracy (my understanding is that provided you know what the backlash is then - at least manually, and a bit more complex in CNC - then it made bugger all difference to the end result since you could tune it out).

For CNC have a chat with Arc Euro Trade of Leicester, they have a website.

Had a look through their website but the CNC stuff I suspect is slightly beyond what is needed and slightly above budget (not my budget so can't fiddle with that unfortunately).

[TSD]

You're right about the spindle - the Kress is basically a 1000W Dremel! If you look at medw.co.uk you can see pics of a Taig fitted with a Kress spindle.

I found it will easily cut 1mm depth slots in Alu, full width with a 6mm cutter, at 400mm/min. It'll probably do a fair bit more than that, but I've only had it running for a couple of weekends so far. I'm only just learning all this stuff myself - I bought the machine a few years back, and it's been a project waiting for me to find the time ever since.

With the high speed spindle, you could cutout small pcbs from blank board as well as drill them. One place I worked had a machine dedicated to this for proto smd pcbs - it wasn't exactly trouble free from what I understand, but it did work, and was a quick way of making one offs.

The MF70 is a tiny machine (still want one - have no use for it!), but the FF230 is more comparable in size to the Taig I think - I'm only going from good reports from my friend, and what I've read though. I suspect the Taig is stiffer, so could be worked harder. I have the impression there's better support for the Proxxons in the uk/europe. Mostly the Taig spares are only available from one source in the UK, no online purchasing, just telephone and cheques in the post. That's mostly OK, but I like to be able to order stuff at midnight when I think of it, not interrupt my working day to make calls and nip to the postbox. I'm not unhappy with the Taig though, if a newer one came up for sale at a good price, I'd certainly consider buying it to update mine

Backlash you can work around to some extent, and cnc software can take account of it fairly easily, but for example when boring holes or cutting curves, the cutter can pull in to the work or push back from it (depending on how you are cutting) as the leadscrews unload when changing direction. So it's ok cutting straight lines, but having cnc means the ability to easily cut large curves, complex surfaces etc., where the backlash could become more of an issue, depending on the accuracy or finish you're looking for. I've not found it a problem when I've got the adjustments right, but a few cutter crashes were enough to knock my first stepper mounts out of adjustment. That shouldn't happen with a properly converted machine of course.

My mill is mainly a toy/learning tool - and it's a great way of burning a lot of time. If I were aiming to use it primarily for work, I'd be looking to buy a turnkey solution as you could easily spend the cost of the machine in wasted hours. I've only made a few bits and pieces as yet, though I've turned a lot of Alu into swarf, and quite a few cutters into bin fodder

[simonr]

I'd recommend buying a small, good quality mill like a Centec or Myford and CNC converting it using Mach3 yourself with stepper motors. You'll learn much more in the process and end up with a better machine for less money!

I've Mach3 converted a Bridgeport Interact CNC mill - and it's fantastic!

Si

[Ed Poore]

I'd recommend buying a small, good quality mill like a Centec or Myford and CNC converting it using Mach3 yourself with stepper motors. You'll learn much more in the process and end up with a better machine for less money!

I've Mach3 converted a Bridgeport Interact CNC mill - and it's fantastic!

Si

Ironic you should mention the Myford - we've already got an ancient ML7 (IIRC) that's hardly been used but works well (now that we've actually tightened things up a bit...).

Since I'm just learning about all this stuff (basically used the lathe a bit and that's it - but tend to have my head screwed on reasonably well) any recommendations on where to start looking, or the kind of models to look at? Lets say for arguments sake that the budget is ~£2000 which would ideally cover the stepper motors as well. I have read through one of Nige's old threads regarding lathes and where to source them.

Location in the U.K. isn't a massive problem - the business is in South West Wales (border between Pembrokeshire / Carmarthenshire) but having said that I'll be moving up to Surrey at the end of the month. Depending on when some work is completed for me and how quickly I reckon I can reassembly the 88"'s engine once it's returned I may be "popping" up to the Highlands briefly so could always stop off on the way...

[TSD]

I'd recommend buying a small, good quality mill like a Centec or Myford and CNC converting it using Mach3 yourself with stepper motors. You'll learn much more in the process and end up with a better machine for less money!

Since the OP is getting the mill for work use, I doubt it'll be less money if you include the lost earnings from time spent converting it. That's a calculation only the op can do.

I'm seeing a pattern here - assembling my ML7 will be the next project once I've finished fiddling with the mill. (It was dismantled and put into storage 20+ years ago)

[Ed Poore]

Since the OP is getting the mill for work use, I doubt it'll be less money if you include the lost earnings from time spent converting it. That's a calculation only the op can do.

I'm seeing a pattern here - assembling my ML7 will be the next project once I've finished fiddling with the mill. (It was dismantled and put into storage 20+ years ago)

You've kind of hit the nail on the head there. Basically some radical modifications to an existing system have been conceived and the company we work with has already got several orders for them. Despite the stuff still being in the prototyping / experimental stage and wants them by the end of September if possible...

There are several factors - basically the attitude is kind of "my way or the high way" so when the transition is made to CNC then it'll be a custom job (certainly from the control side of things). But given the time-frame if these alu head-sinks are to be made in house (which is the desire since it means we have control over all the manufacturing and orders are plentiful but hap-hazard) then a manual mill that doesn't require much setting up but can be converted to CNC easily is the best.

The other consequence is that while massive bargains can be found on eBay etc we're kind of erring towards a new machine rather than a second-hand one so that we don't need to spend ages fixing any potential problems.

The other side of the story is that we do have the full kit for the ML7 so could actually make the heat-sinks on that in the short-term although not ideal. I'm not sure whether our "table" adapter that allows for horizontal milling is quite large enough but needless to say it can be done if required.

[pete3000]

If time isn't on your side a Tormach mill is out of the box, with excellent backup and support. pcnc770 or 1100, for heatsinks etc the 770 should be big enough, although I guess it will be out of your spend.

Less pricey more hobby sized is a seig KX3 from Arc Eurotrade.

Remember the old saying though, you can do small work on a big machine but not big work on a small machine.

It all depends on your budget and how much you can afford to not have your mill at work.

I have a X3 from ARC and by the time I have completed my cnc conversion I will have spent almost as much as a ready built. But then I wouldn't have had the "fun" of doing the conversion.

[Ed Poore]

Well after speaking with the chap who distributes the "Taig" mills in the UK it looks like that may be the route we're taking. Perhaps specifying CNC was slightly misleading - the immediate stuff for the heat-sinks will almost certainly be milled by hand, with CNC to follow.

Looking at the alternatives (basically non-CNC ones but that can be converted to CNC easily) the Taig looks the most rigid and largest travel for it's price. CNC ready ones that have the same sort of travel are substantially more expensive.

[TSD]

Hope you're happy with it, let us know how you get on.

If you're sticking with the DIY principle, and can solder SMD, I should have port breakout board and microstepper driver pcbs back in a week or so. Only 2A drivers, but enough for a mill that size.

The first prototype seems happy enough driving at 2A with heatsinking not as good as in the final version.

[Ed Poore]

Hope you're happy with it, let us know how you get on.

If you're sticking with the DIY principle, and can solder SMD, I should have port breakout board and microstepper driver pcbs back in a week or so. Only 2A drivers, but enough for a mill that size.

The first prototype seems happy enough driving at 2A with heatsinking not as good as in the final version.

Well going to the original definition of DIY I would have said yes we're doing that but since the business is in building custom electronics (one main specialist area of the business is small compact data loggers) so soldering SMD isn't really a problem since almost everything is that :-).

In fact there are already stepper motor drivers lying around - one's in use for the system we're buying this mill for.

At the other end of the scale my Master's project at Imperial was dealing with 4.5kW motors and 150A currents so can do big too

[ejparrott]

For steppers and the like, google Motion Control Products

[simonr]

When I mentioned Myford, it was in the context of Mills rather than Lathes - they made some really nice small mills.

Another option is Denford. These were made for use in education so tend to be relatively small - but they are really nicely made. My CNC Lathe is a Denford Easiturn. The original NC controllers are out of the arc but the hardware of the machine including steppers & drives is very solid.

The original stepper drivers are half stepping which gives a cut resolution of 0.025mm - which is good enough. Any higher resolution will be lost in the machine bending! My bridgeport achieves 0.0002mm resolution - but in practical terms 0.01 is plenty and all I trust it to. Therefore, micro stepping drives are a waste of money!

Best after Market stepper drives IMHO opinion are from GeckoDrive. Reliable, easy to interface and bullet proof. I use one for my 4th axis and tool changer.

Replacing the drives will however give you a neater installation and quicker because you don't have to do any reverse engineering.

The Bridgeport used Servo Motors instead of steppers. I replaced the drives with ones made by CNCDrive (in Hungary) with AMT102 digital encoders - and it works great.

Use a Break-out-board from someone like CNC4PC to connect the PC to the stepper / servo drives - it does all the hard work. I run both machines with old Dell Optiplex XP based PCs which are about £20 on eBay. They have real serial and parallel ports which many newer PCs lack.

A fully specced Mach3 conversion will cost £500 to £700 including new drives and you can pick up a good Denford Triac (my personal favourite) CNC mill for a little over a grand on eBay. That will give you a modern, very capable CNC Mill. I was looking for a Triac when I was offered the Bridgeport.

Once the bits arrived, the Mach3 conversion takes about 16hours for a very neat job. I converted my Lathe in about 5 hours - but I was in a hurry to run a job - and have never got round to tidying it up!

Si

[longlandy]

When I mentioned Myford, it was in the context of Mills rather than Lathes - they made some really nice small mills.

Another option is Denford. These were made for use in education so tend to be relatively small - but they are really nicely made. My CNC Lathe is a Denford Easiturn. The original NC controllers are out of the arc but the hardware of the machine including steppers & drives is very solid.

The original stepper drivers are half stepping which gives a cut resolution of 0.025mm - which is good enough. Any higher resolution will be lost in the machine bending! My bridgeport achieves 0.0002mm resolution - but in practical terms 0.01 is plenty and all I trust it to. Therefore, micro stepping drives are a waste of money!

Best after Market stepper drives IMHO opinion are from GeckoDrive. Reliable, easy to interface and bullet proof. I use one for my 4th axis and tool changer.

Replacing the drives will however give you a neater installation and quicker because you don't have to do any reverse engineering.

The Bridgeport used Servo Motors instead of steppers. I replaced the drives with ones made by CNCDrive (in Hungary) with AMT102 digital encoders - and it works great.

Use a Break-out-board from someone like CNC4PC to connect the PC to the stepper / servo drives - it does all the hard work. I run both machines with old Dell Optiplex XP based PCs which are about £20 on eBay. They have real serial and parallel ports which many newer PCs lack.

A fully specced Mach3 conversion will cost £500 to £700 including new drives and you can pick up a good Denford Triac (my personal favourite) CNC mill for a little over a grand on eBay. That will give you a modern, very capable CNC Mill. I was looking for a Triac when I was offered the Bridgeport.

Once the bits arrived, the Mach3 conversion takes about 16hours for a very neat job. I converted my Lathe in about 5 hours - but I was in a hurry to run a job - and have never got round to tidying it up!

Si

I'll second this, start with a real machine then upgrade the out of date cnc, its amazing what you can do with mach3 and a plc

[Ed Poore]

Ah well the advice was incredibly useful. I've been working the other side of the yard to Dad and he's gone off and ordered one of the Peatol mills. Think he'd come to the conclusion that it'll do what he wants so now wants to get it as soon as possible.

What can I say - it's for him and it's his money :-).

I'm tempted to get a mill myself at some point and will probably go for a slightly bigger one since I'd quite like to be able to do slightly bigger parts for the 110 etc and go for a manual mill and retrofit it myself. When funds permit that is

[ejparrott]

My Bridgeport clone was scrap value from work, the bearings went on the spindle motor and chewed up the stator. Its was £700+ to have the spindle rebuilt, new bearings and a rewind, more than it was worth as the NC was dying too. The ball screws and slides are all good, so I'm fitting a new motor, with VFD, new steppers and mach3 on the old house PC.

You can increase the accuracy of a stepper at the table by gearing down, at the cost of rapid speeds, which for a home workshop is irrelevant anyway. I've got 3:1 steps on my table steppers, increase the accuracy of the motor 3 times....ish....

[longlandy]

On my haas mills the grid on the encoders has over 8000 "divisions" per rev ,and thats even on the spindle and can interpolate a circle on a bullbar test to .003mm(so they say)