flatback90 Posted September 24, 2011 Share Posted September 24, 2011 as much as i would like to i just cant quite afford a gigglepinned 8274, so that got me wondering is there anything out there for a lad like me with an ep9/tds type winch front and rear on a challenge truck? i'm after a bit more speed when pulling than the std winch gives. i was wondering about a bowmotor2, would that give me more speed as its got more power behind it than the std motor? or is there something out there that will magically transform my ep9 into a monster? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yella 90 Posted September 25, 2011 Share Posted September 25, 2011 fit a bow 1 and then 24v over 12 it you wouldnt believe the difference ive got a ep as my center winch and it doesnt even slow down one bit when in use Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flatback90 Posted September 25, 2011 Author Share Posted September 25, 2011 fit a bow 1 and then 24v over 12 it you wouldnt believe the difference ive got a ep as my center winch and it doesnt even slow down one bit when in use hmmm interesting, how do you go about the 24v bit? bowmotor is easy, its ,just elektrickeryaint my strong point!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted September 25, 2011 Share Posted September 25, 2011 24v -look at David Bowyers Turbo pack Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simonr Posted September 25, 2011 Share Posted September 25, 2011 I'd also vote for David's Turbo Pack thing. They work surprisingly well! Also, take your Tds / EP9 apart and dissolve all the grease off the planetary gearbox using Petrol etc. Then replace it with Land Rover swivel grease - but not too much of it - just enough to coat the gears with a film. The swivel grease is much less viscose than the original grease and doing this increases the speed by about 30%. It also makes the freespool quite usable! In terms of motors, IMHO the Bow 2 takes a lot of beating. Nothing on the market currently has a better combination of speed & torque. The only trouble with it is it's a bit longer than standard and it's a bit too wide to fit between the chassis rails. If your winch sits on top, it's not a problem. Si Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yella 90 Posted September 26, 2011 Share Posted September 26, 2011 ive got a dedicated 24v system on my comp truck personally id rather the bow 1 over the bow 2 ive got both of them on my car and the 1's pull alot harder Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flatback90 Posted September 26, 2011 Author Share Posted September 26, 2011 first off i'm gonna get the grease out like simon said if that gets me 30% then im happy then i'm gonna look and try to decide wether to go with bow1 or bow2..... thanks for all the replies and help Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Poore Posted September 26, 2011 Share Posted September 26, 2011 I may be able to help . Sometime in the next week may be receiving four of these motors for free. Slight overkill given they're the 11kW version... Also included are some of the inverters required to drive them. PMS120_W_TD-E_technical_specs.pdf b100a40 specification.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flatback90 Posted September 26, 2011 Author Share Posted September 26, 2011 how the hell are you getting four for free?? read the specs and it says water cooled? and requires an inverter! carp it was hard enough for me to wire in in cab winch controls let alone one of these bad boys!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Poore Posted September 26, 2011 Share Posted September 26, 2011 how the hell are you getting four for free?? read the specs and it says water cooled? and requires an inverter! carp it was hard enough for me to wire in in cab winch controls let alone one of these bad boys!!!! Well long story short they're "scrap" from an electric racing car. They were hoping to sell them but as they've "ahem" modified them they haven't succeeded so not wanting stuff to go to waste I offered to be their scrap merchant. The inverters are included with it as well, and yes they are water-cooled, they're not actually that big , ok wouldn't be a direct replacement for a Bow Motor but would just about fit inside the wheel of a 16" rim I think. So basically the only issue is powering the damn thing given that they're 11kW Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simonr Posted September 27, 2011 Share Posted September 27, 2011 It looks from the spec that to spit out 11kw, they need a hundred volts or so? It may be that the inverter has a voltage multiplier - but it's still likely to be high voltage. Even at 12v, that's only 1000A which is within the capability of a fairly ordinary battery. Running at a higher voltage though has many advantages. Also, it will only be drawing 11kw when the motor is stalled. The actual amount of energy taken out of the batteries for a given winch pull will be the same whether you are running this or a 2kw motor. These will in fact use much less as they are relatively efficient compared to a series wound motor. To actually incorporate it into a winch, it would make more sense to make something more akin to a PTO winch and mount the motor remotely. That could turn into something incredible! How do you charge batteries at 48 or 96v? Take a standard alternator and remove the regulator. If you stick 12v into the field windings and replace the diode pack with something with a slightly higher voltage breakdown rating - it will spit out about 120v which is sufficient to charge 8 batteries in series or 96v. At 96v, you will only be drawing 125A, so the individual batteries can be quite small - something like PC680 motorcycle batteries. 8 of these would give you the equivalent energy of a 12v 64Ah battery. Si Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Poore Posted September 27, 2011 Share Posted September 27, 2011 Was wondering how long it'd take Si to respond... I was actually thinking of playing around with mounting one on the PTO (when I get some spare time that is) but not for winching. Thinking hybrid vehicle scenario... Basically mount one on the PTO via a clutch, disengage the main box and then power the drive-train from the motor. Would only need to achieve say 30mph and last a short while (say 30 minutes) but would be great for pootling around London (if you so wished), hybrid therefore congestion charge / LEZ exempt. Need to do some maths on shifting a 2 tonne 110 around though... @simonr - Want me to bring a couple to Surrey for a play when I move up there (well they're actually in Kensington at the moment)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
iomlt Posted September 27, 2011 Share Posted September 27, 2011 Also, take your Tds / EP9 apart and dissolve all the grease off the planetary gearbox using Petrol etc. Then replace it with Land Rover swivel grease - but not too much of it - just enough to coat the gears with a film. The swivel grease is much less viscose than the original grease and doing this increases the speed by about 30%. It also makes the freespool quite usable! Si Would gear oil do the same? 80/90 or even thicker? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted September 27, 2011 Share Posted September 27, 2011 I think you'd be better with the nice MSO2 additives in the swivel grease in all honesty, plus it has good sticky properties to make sure it stays around all the parts of the gearbox, and not drain to the bottom when not in use. Personally though, I have used some spray PTFE white grease, not used it yet (truck off the road atm) but the freespool is lovely Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simonr Posted September 27, 2011 Share Posted September 27, 2011 Gear oil is better than grease, but the swivel grease is still better. It appears to be a bit Thixotrophic which means its viscose when stationary, but gets thinner when you mix it up. PTFE works great - but doesn't inhibit corrosion. I tried this for a while but swapped to swivel grease when the gears started to rust a little! Even though the gearbox is sealed, there will always be some water vapour in there and it seems to be enough to cause corrosion. Si Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Superpants Posted September 27, 2011 Share Posted September 27, 2011 Ed- If you do go about playing round with higher DC voltages- be very careful. HV DC is dangerous, both if you shock yourself and in switching/ fusing. It can strike an arc which means you can carry on conducting current even with blown fuses and open relays if you use parts designed for low voltage DC or AC system. There are correctly rated parts out there which are expensive at present but work reliably and safely. If you want to go down this route there are many other factors to consider to ensure the system is safe- I'd have a close look at http://www.diyelectriccar.com/ for a heads up as well as UNECE Reg 100. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Poore Posted September 27, 2011 Share Posted September 27, 2011 Ed- If you do go about playing round with higher DC voltages- be very careful. HV DC is dangerous, both if you shock yourself and in switching/ fusing. It can strike an arc which means you can carry on conducting current even with blown fuses and open relays if you use parts designed for low voltage DC or AC system. There are correctly rated parts out there which are expensive at present but work reliably and safely. If you want to go down this route there are many other factors to consider to ensure the system is safe- I'd have a close look at http://www.diyelectriccar.com/ for a heads up as well as UNECE Reg 100. Pah what's a few hundred volts . I'm fully aware of the consequences - surprisingly for Imperial I'm actually doing a job that my degree (Electrical & Electronic Engineering) relates to. Also had experience (and fun) playing with 15kV DC systems at one of the places I worked previously... In reality I'm unlikely to have the time to even start thinking about playing around with stuff like that for a few years. There's more urgent things I want to do to the 110 first like eventually fix / recondition the gearbox, fit lockers, on-board air etc etc... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LandyManLuke Posted September 27, 2011 Share Posted September 27, 2011 Nice kit to play with though, seeing as it's come along FOC! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simonr Posted September 27, 2011 Share Posted September 27, 2011 It's a fair warning from Mike - DC shocks sting a bit (and I've had quite a few up to 360v from the Freelander!). Fortunately, I think the gods of Electricity were out to lunch that day and missed the opportunity to kill me! Although not 'safe', 96v is unlikely to kill you unless you are very unlucky! The worst I've had to date was deliberately shorting out a bank of 26 x 12v 1000A batteries with a spanner - just to see how cool it was! The spanner pretty much exploded. The bang left my ears ringing for three days and neighbors I'd never seen before came looking for the bomb crater! It was a 32mm spanner - and it's gone! All of it! vapourised - or zipped into an alternative reality! I had the foresight to wear a welding mask and gloves otherwise it might have been more painful than surprising! It was a little bit cool though - it felt a bit like a scene from Ghostbusters For the switching, I have used appropriately rated fuses rated at 500A, 500v DC and things called Kilovac contactors - where the contacts are contained in a vacuum to surpress the arc. These are bloody good and if you buy them in the US, fairly cheap. Mucho expensive in the UK. My contactors split the battery pack into four so the max voltage you can be exposed to by touching across any two points is 48v. I think it is possible to build something safely at low cost so long as you are careful and aware of the risks. Si Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zardos Posted September 27, 2011 Share Posted September 27, 2011 And where is the video of the spanner zipping into and alternative reality ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simonr Posted September 27, 2011 Share Posted September 27, 2011 I think it followed the spanner! I'm not doing it again! Si Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Superpants Posted September 27, 2011 Share Posted September 27, 2011 Ed- Didn't want to do the provierbial teaching granny to suck eggs, so glad to hear that you have the appropriate skills and appreciation to work with these safely. In a public forum anyone might be looking for ideas and not have your level of skill, so I thought a warning was pertinent. My day job is designing HV systems for production cars, so am exposed to these issues daily and hence am sensitive to the risks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simonr Posted September 27, 2011 Share Posted September 27, 2011 I wasn't criticising Mike. You are absolutely right but where would either of us be without experimenting and accepting a degree of risk? Si Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed Poore Posted September 28, 2011 Share Posted September 28, 2011 Ed- Didn't want to do the provierbial teaching granny to suck eggs, so glad to hear that you have the appropriate skills and appreciation to work with these safely.In a public forum anyone might be looking for ideas and not have your level of skill, so I thought a warning was pertinent. My day job is designing HV systems for production cars, so am exposed to these issues daily and hence am sensitive to the risks. I wasn't criticising Mike.yYou are absolutely right but where would either of us be without experimenting and accepting a degree of risk? Si Hadn't thought about other people following suit but a valid point. Wonder where they'd source the motors from though since these apparently set the team back in excess of £20k! Si's right some of us have to make sacrifices so others don't :S Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Superpants Posted September 28, 2011 Share Posted September 28, 2011 Si- I wasn't taking it as criticism, but thought it best to better explain myself. It is absolutely right to experiment, take a few risks and learn something new (and enjoy yourself in the process), but I tend to take the view when experimenting that learning from other peoples experiences and mistakes is also important. At least knowing that something has the potential to kill you or seriously injure you will guide how you approach the problem- hence your welding mask when short circuiting batteries! I also agree this might be a bit academic if someone does have difficulty getting hold of motors, but they are starting to become more available (albeit at a price!). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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