Escape Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 Right, I've been thinking about this ever since Quentin got such good results with his squirted 3.5. Now that Nige has put the JE top end + MS up for sale, I might just go for it and see how far we get. Car is a 1996 4.0 Range Rover GEMS, converted to 4.6 and equiped with a single-point lambda controled LPG system. I use it to get to work, to haul the cartrailer and also take it offroad (including Ladoga last year). I'm not looking for absolute speed or power (I have other toys to satisfy those needs), but for allround driveability, especially with the trailer, reasonable mpg, reliability and off course a copious amount of grins when I blip the throttle. I would like the MS to control the LPG as well, to allow for 2 different spark and fueling maps. I would however prefer to keep as much of the original sensors as possible (lambda, knock, CKP...). If MS can supply the dash with all the necessary signals, that woudl be great, if not the GEMS can stay in piggyback. I'm running an R380, so no autobox ECU to worry about. Any thoughts? Greetz, Filip Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elbekko Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 As an addition, it's already been discussed a little on the RR.net forums: http://www.rangerovers.net/forum/7-range-rover-p38a/11733-megasquirt.html So all that seems to be really needed is to go in and give it a go. The fact that it's a manual seems to make it a lot more doable, I have a feeling that we can make it happen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave W Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 The main decision you have to make is "to EDIS or not to EDIS" other than that it's all pretty straight forward. MS can't control the LPG fuelling BUT it does make a really good companion to the LPG ECU. You use the 12v feed from the LPG solenoid circuit to switch maps automatically in the MS. You set the secondary ignition map to suit the LPG and the secondary fuelling to all zeros, that way you don't need the normal "injector relays" that most LPG kits use to disable the petrol injectors. You get a really smooth changeover that way because you can set a changeover time in MS so that it can reduce the fuelling to 0 over. say, half a second while the LPG system gets going. You can use the knock sensors but need some additional hardware to convert the sensor output into something the MS can use. If you don't use EDIS then you can use the crank position sensor to drive the MS. Normally I don't use EDIS as, to my mind, it's just extra carp you don't need HOWEVER on an LPG system it's worth considering because the tach output from the EDIS may be compatible with the LPG system tach input meaning the LPG and EDIS will run without MS should the worst happen. Having said that I always build for redundancy where I can and the only problem I've had on an MS/LPG system was actually the LPG ECU due to a bad connector at the ECU. If you want to run the engine pretty much as per factory then MS3 is probably the way to go although it might be a bit "bleeding edge" for you - depends how adventurous you are ! MS2 will just about do the job but it can be a bit of a faff trying to get enough inputs/outputs sorted, particularly if you want to add fan control. MS2 and MS3 will control the OEM idle valve, with MS1 you'll need to add a different valve. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elbekko Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 Good info Dave! Fan control isn't an issue either, that's all been removed and replaced by hydraulic trickery for the winch etc, so I think MSv2 would be plenty. I don't think the LPG tach is a problem (if needed at all, I think it uses MAP instead). Is there a reason EDIS can't get a tach signal from MS, instead of the other way around? Sure it would defeat the whole redundancy thing, but it would still have the excellent spark EDIS gives. How hard would it be to have MS talk to the GEMS ignition? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Escape Posted January 3, 2012 Author Share Posted January 3, 2012 I like the idea of having MS using the standard GEMS coils instead of via EDIS. As for the LPG, the current system only uses one stepper motor to control the fueling, and even that could be replaced by a vacuum operated system. So if I fit MS, I'd like to get rid of the LPG ecu altogether. I thought MS2 could provide an output for a stepper motor? As Elbekko said, fan and airco control aren't an issue, I would like a good idle control, preferably closed loop, to cope with the varying loads when using the hydraulic winch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave W Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 Running the GEMS coils direct from MS is pretty straight forward. For simplicity and to avoid electrical interference problems in the MS ECU I build a small "ignition driver" into a small sealed aluminium box in the engine bay. Mount the 4 coil drivers in there and the MS is only dealing with logic level signals. For redundancy/spares the driver box is connected to the rest of the loom via a 9 way connector so the box can be easily unplugged/replaced should a coil driver fail although the "new" BIP drivers are pretty much bomb proof anyway. EDIS can also drive the GEMS coils directly BTW. As you are running GEMS you MIGHT be able to run EDIS from the OEM crank sensor. Some variations of the OEM systems used a 36-1 crank sensor and the crank sensor is a VR sensor, the same as EDIS uses. Not sure where the missing tooth sits relative to TDC though. MS2 has a 4 wire stepper motor output for closed loop idle which, in this case, would allow you to use the OEM idle air valve. The MS2-Extra closed loop idle control also uses a much improved algorithm over the MS1-Extra code versions (especially the last ones !). It could be used to control an LPG fuelling stepper (most of them are actually repurposed IACs anyway) but not "out of the box" as that would require specific code to be written to convert the VE-bins and EGO correction into a stepper motor output. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hybrid_From_Hell Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 If the tooth is out and its unable to be moved you can trim (ie move) with the MS Software, unsure though what the trim limit is ? Think for some reason my memory is saying thats the software limits to +/- 45 degrees ? Nige Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 I've skimmed the above, some good info there, apologies if any of this is already said / sucking eggs: - EDIS is "locked" to using a 36-1 wheel mounted a certain way because when you're Ford and designing the engine at the same time, you can change the trigger wheel to suit. It has maximum & minimum timings it can manage, so there's only so far from "normal" you can push it before you run out of adjustment, full details on the system are on google . FWIW I really like EDIS, it's very well designed, reliable, gives huge sparks and is largely idiot proof. Doing it all in the MS is a fair bit of extra faff and can bring problems with EMI from the high-power coil drivers working in the same box as the CPU. If you're going direct-drive (no EDIS) I would look at modern coil-on-plug coils such as the very popular LSx ones, these only need a low-level signal from the ECU and do the heavy stuff in the coil itself. I wouldn't use P38 coil packs, they're expensive and not terribly reliable. Ford ones are cheap & plentiful. - You can't control the LPG kit directly if it's a "dumb" gas-ring type but you may be able to control a "sequential" injection LPG kit if you can find the necessary bits. You *may* be able to exert some control over it by connecting the MS to the LPG's sensor inputs. - MS2 / MS3 give you more options but a far steeper learning curve, personally I would get up & running on MS1-Extra like everyone else round here and then upgrade to MS2/3 if you want to, safe in the knowledge that it was all running OK before you fiddled with it - You can change the sensor data in MS to suit factory sensors, I'd check what the lambda sensors are as early ones are Titania which is a variable-resistance, they're rarer and more expensive and most people just ditch them in favour of universal £20 Zirconia ones as fitted to everything-else-ever. - Knock sensing I don't really know the state of play with, it's a fairly complex subject and what with knock sensors being a glorified microphone there's a necessary level of signal processing going on in the factory ECU that you need to be aware of. It *may* be possible to put an MS in a GEMS ECU box, if you find a dead one and post it to me I can have a looksee. I have a bucket of BIP373's here if you need any. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hybrid_From_Hell Posted January 3, 2012 Share Posted January 3, 2012 and is largely idiot proof I am the living proof Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bobtail84 Posted January 27, 2012 Share Posted January 27, 2012 - You can't control the LPG kit directly if it's a "dumb" gas-ring type but you may be able to control a "sequential" injection LPG kit if you can find the necessary bits. You *may* be able to exert some control over it by connecting the MS to the LPG's sensor inputs. We managed to get an LPG injection system to work quite nicely with MS1 but the injectors are low Z and normal hot wire ones are high Z so you have to get high Z LPG injectors ( you will see more poo from the piebald rocking horse than finding these..) or low Z petrol ones which are expensive. We were going to put resisters in the low Z system but couldn't be arsed just yet and went back to the cooker ring which works fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 You may find suitable low-Z petrol injectors at the scrapyard for cheap, there's lists of Bosch/Lucas/Denso/Etc. part numbers & cars linked from the Megasquirt forums - anything with enough flow will do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuck Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 If the tooth is out and its unable to be moved you can trim (ie move) with the MS Software, unsure though what the trim limit is ? Think for some reason my memory is saying thats the software limits to +/- 45 degrees ? Nige Nige Et all, Sorry for the hijack but can anybody point me in the direction of where to adjust this "trim" value please? Before Fridge shouts at me I have tried google! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hybrid_From_Hell Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 Open MegaTune Spark, Spark Setting > Trim angle - 0 = nothing (as is) you can do up to -/+ 45 degrees Nige Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stuck Posted January 30, 2012 Share Posted January 30, 2012 Cheers Nige. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.