Guest Posted May 7, 2012 Share Posted May 7, 2012 I have nearly finished my latest project which means I will now be able to sleep in my truck, although I will not be cooking in the truck I will have an Eberspacher installed, aware of the dangers of incomplete combustion and Carbon monoxide poisoning I had been considering getting a CO detector for the truck, however the sad news of the girl killed over the weekend by CO when camping has re-focused my list of things to get. So I guess the question is what is good? I have seen everything from the dot type detectors to the full smoke alarm type things, clearly the dot type things are not going to wake me up so I have ruled them out, but have no idea which type or brand would be suitable so am looking for some forum advice together with any other tips I need about mounting them environment etc. Thanks, Jason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CwazyWabbit Posted May 7, 2012 Share Posted May 7, 2012 Seems you can get ones purpose built for vehicles that will run off the car battery and have a 9v backup battery, sounds like a good idea ..... not sure why they should cost over 80 quid when the house ones are 15 pounds Is that just profiteering off the motorist or is there something special about the mobile environment that destroys normal alarms? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stevie D Posted May 7, 2012 Share Posted May 7, 2012 I've one of these on the mantle piece at home,since the wood burner was installed a year or two back, no fuss, no nonsense, compact, keep meaning to buy another one for the log cabin and to take camping... http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/honeywell-carbon-monoxide-co-detector-H450EN-new-/280871743621?pt=UK_Safety_Alarms&hash=item416542b085 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smego Posted May 7, 2012 Share Posted May 7, 2012 We have 2 in the house, one Mains (for the gas water heater) and one that is like a smoke alarm with a 9V battery for the log burner (as it still goes in a power cut) cost about £25 I think and I tested it by putting it over the chimney when we installed the burner and it bleeped in about 7 second (something to do with it testing the air 3 times before triggering) but that would be an early enough warning, my only worry would be false triggering in the summer when you are sat in traffic as they are way more sensitive than they need to be to stop us dieing and boy is it LOUD!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nickwilliams Posted May 7, 2012 Share Posted May 7, 2012 There is a British Standard for these alarms, BS EN 50291, and you would be well advised to ensure that whatever you buy has been independently tested to show that it complies with this standard. There are actually two parts to the standard - BS EN 50291-1 is for alarms intended for use in domestic premises, BS EN 50291-2 is for caravans, mobile homes and recreational craft and includes additional environmental requirements. Fire Angel is a good brand: they are a customer of ours and I know they take the testing seriously. I don't think they do products for mobile applications, but you should be OK with a domestic alarm if you test it reasonably regularly. The extra requirements for part 2 of the standard are mainly to do with use in boats. Nick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rovernut Posted May 8, 2012 Share Posted May 8, 2012 Just wanted to say, don't fit the detector too high. It should be placed just below the lowest bed height. Most Motorhome and caravanners I deal with fit them on the ceiling with their smoke alarm where they are as much use as a trap door in a canoe.Your Eberspacher should be drawing air from outside and should be exhausted outside so shouldn't pose too much danger. However, fitting a detector is cheap peace of mind. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 8, 2012 Share Posted May 8, 2012 Seems you can get ones purpose built for vehicles that will run off the car battery and have a 9v backup battery, sounds like a good idea ..... not sure why they should cost over 80 quid when the house ones are 15 pounds Is that just profiteering off the motorist or is there something special about the mobile environment that destroys normal alarms? Looking into things today whilst waiting for my flight I did a bit of research, the £80 motor home ones are gas detectors as well as CO detectors so will spot a gas leak, as I will not have gas plumbed into the truck this is not an issue. There is a British Standard for these alarms, BS EN 50291, and you would be well advised to ensure that whatever you buy has been independently tested to show that it complies with this standard. There are actually two parts to the standard - BS EN 50291-1 is for alarms intended for use in domestic premises, BS EN 50291-2 is for caravans, mobile homes and recreational craft and includes additional environmental requirements. Fire Angel is a good brand: they are a customer of ours and I know they take the testing seriously. I don't think they do products for mobile applications, but you should be OK with a domestic alarm if you test it reasonably regularly. The extra requirements for part 2 of the standard are mainly to do with use in boats. Nick. Thanks Nick, I have looked at the Fire Angel ones they seem to come with a long life battery and a mute button so I think I will look for one of those. Just wanted to say, don't fit the detector too high. It should be placed just below the lowest bed height. Most Motorhome and caravanners I deal with fit them on the ceiling with their smoke alarm where they are as much use as a trap door in a canoe.Your Eberspacher should be drawing air from outside and should be exhausted outside so shouldn't pose too much danger. However, fitting a detector is cheap peace of mind. Thanks for that, just the sort of advise I was after, I know my Eberspacher (when fitted) will vent to the outside but as you say £20 is nothing to pay for piece of mind. Jason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom1809 Posted May 8, 2012 Share Posted May 8, 2012 Err on the bit about installing below the lowest bed height is wrong, most manufactures state 150-300mm from the ceeling and above 1.5 m, spot defectors usually state installed height above the appliance. I know I'm stating for domestic type detectors but principles are the same, if it's low down and it goes off chances are your probably dead or don't have a clue what's going on, there was a case where one lady twice a month had symptoms of co poisoning, after inspection of her gas boiler and premises turned out to be a cracked manifold on her car and the gases been drawn in via her heater so totally worth having if sleeping over night and a chance of a heater on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CwazyWabbit Posted May 8, 2012 Share Posted May 8, 2012 This would suggest you could stick it wherever you liked and you would be fine http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasci/chem03/chem03364.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom1809 Posted May 8, 2012 Share Posted May 8, 2012 I'm just going off what Is in my cogi/gas safe/ viper books and in my core exam for gas it's exactly a question that was asked where they should be fitted. Never really go into principles of gases and molecular what ever. Best to follow what it says on the box Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CwazyWabbit Posted May 8, 2012 Share Posted May 8, 2012 Fair enough Tom, we are both going on what we read ... arguably your reading material is more likely to be correct Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ratty43 Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 I thought carbon monoxide was a dense gas and thus built up low to the ground, hence why pits in garages are extremely dangerous? Edit: A bit of searching suggests that CO is actually very slightly less dense than air so I stand corrected. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted May 10, 2012 Share Posted May 10, 2012 Just to round this off, In the end I went for a Fire Angel Digital CO monitor, a big display and seven year battery, not opened it yet or figured out where It will be mounted but at least I have one!! Jason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brighouse shed Posted May 11, 2012 Share Posted May 11, 2012 pits in garages are dangerous not because CO sinks but because they can have poor circulation and potentially H2S leakage from the earth added to O2 depletion from welding etc.Its effectively a confined space which in industry is a whole world of procedures but, for the home short of buying something like a Draeger four gas monitor it's best to waft the air round before getting in. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Superpants Posted May 11, 2012 Share Posted May 11, 2012 Many of the smoke alarms/ carbon monoxide detectors on the market used to explicitly state that they weren't suitable for motor vehicles/ caravans- ones that are intended for this type of use will have slightly different instructions than a domestic installation as it is almost impossible to comply with normal fitting instructions- too many doors/ windows/ vents and you practically sleep in the kitchen! I was involved in some experiment on fitting Carbon Monoxide detectors in Caravan Holiday Homes with the HSE- Given the wrong conditions i.e faulty fire and bad ventilation, you’d be surprised how quickly the CO can build to a dangerous level. It was in a few minutes in the worst case. Having said that the detectors worked very well and detected the problem very quickly. CO is not to dissimilar to air density when cold, but it is normally associated with combustion, it tends to be warm and therefore rise. The instructions should take account of this in where they recommend placement so best to follow them- not what someone remembers or tells you on the internet!!!!!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nickwilliams Posted May 11, 2012 Share Posted May 11, 2012 We held a cave rescue workshop at the new Buxton fire station a couple of weeks ago, and one of the things we looked at was bad air detection. The UK's main cave rescue teams have all just acquired personal gas monitors and we had a chance to play with them in the new station's training facility. This includes a room set up to behave like a domestic house which has burners to simulate an oven fire, a chip pan and a ceiling flash-over. Very impressive kit. Held at waist/chest height, the personal gas monitors took about 40 seconds to reach a CO alarm level from the ceiling burner. I've also heard from reliable sources about CO2 ponding around equipment in places like breweries, and I've seen stratification of gases in caves and mines, so I'm absolutely sure that the guy in CW's link above who says 'it all mixes up due to diffusion' is talking rubbish. Local draughts caused by heating, ventilation, and the release of the gas in the case of a leak, are far more significant. CO deaths are usually caused by a rather more insidious invasion of gas than a fire: I don't think you can necessarily rely on the same convection effects to raise the gas to a high level as you would with smoke. It seems to me that you either need the detector as close as possible to your head when you are sleeping, or you need to look at where the possible sources of CO are and try to identify where the concentration will be highest if there is a problem. Overall, however, the experience from the fire station experiments and from the comments by Superpants is that it's not actually very important where the detector goes so long as it is in the main area where people are sleeping. Nick. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Superpants Posted May 11, 2012 Share Posted May 11, 2012 There had been a couple of deaths from Carbon Monoxide poisoning (this is back in the late 90s) in various types of caravan, and so we were carrying out some investigations to work out what recommendations/ information should be made to the industry. Nick is quite correct that CO deaths aren’t normally associated with the burning of a house/ caravan. The two main issues that caused the problem were in lack of ventilation- blocking of gas vents either deliberately or accidently and by a faulty open flame fire. Putting the ceramic radiator in the fire incorrectly chills the flame, causing incomplete combustion and hence CO rather than CO2. In this case the gas generated is still warm and less dense than air, so roof level measurements were higher than lower height ones. In a domestic situation, the generation of CO is almost always going to be associated with a similar method, and so the gas will tend to rise. The levels at which you will be affected vary from person to person but are well below 100 parts per million before someone will be affected adversely. This is a very small quantity of gas. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brighouse shed Posted May 12, 2012 Share Posted May 12, 2012 Yes the diffusion bit isd misleading. gas moves at 500m/min I think but its random so not in a line. diffusion will spread the gas but in a sealed room the flows are much lower and you will get stratification. In a house there is usually enough thermal flow to allow full dispersal but i would rather have a personal GD alarm 500mm or less from my mouth than 2m above my head Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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