Trigger wheel conundrum

[Bingy]

First post of many, no doubt. ( yes Nige, i see you sniggering in the corner)

Background

Im in the proccess of building from the ground up challenge truck. Engine wise, i have always loved v8s and so i decided no matter what i would have another one

Had a full 3.9 v8 and decided i was going to squirt it. Ordered full kit off Nige, but after inspecting the engine, i decided it was in need of a full rebuild.Then i thought - rather than rebuild a 3.9 i would rebuild a 4.6 After speaking to a couple of local engine rebuilders, the advice that came back wasnt good. The general census was that if an engine needed top hatting , the block was basically scrap. One had never heard of top hatting.

I decided then that i was going to get a new engine. After all, this is supposed to be my dream vehicle, the one i had wanted since i was a young schoolkid. i emailled and phoned a few companies and decided to go with V8Developments. They are building me a performance v8 4.6 stage 3 long motor. In exchange for the old 4.6 block, pistons, crank and heads. ( Just so glad i didnt take them to the scrapyard as the local engineeers told me to - Ha)

So anyhow, the heads are finished, the crank is bieng balanced and the block is awaiting the crank, the the engine can be put together.

I was talking to the proprietor on the phone and he told me that he wanted me to send the flywheel, clutch cover and front pulley down so that they could all be balanced. i asked which front pulley i should use as i was going to squirt the engine, which he replied, 'Are you not using the 4.6 flywheel with the triggerwheel on that?''

''No, the triggerwheel goes on the front pulley''

''Maybe on a 3.9 yes it bolts through the pulley, but on a 4.6 how do you attach it to the front pulley then'' he asked

''By machining a small shoulder off the back of the pulley and attaching it by a couple of bolts through the existing holes''

''Oh, seems a bit feeble that. The 4.6 front pulley isnt all that thick anyway and you want to take 3-4 mm off it? It cant be much thicker than that anyway. Why are you not using the 4.6 flywheel and sensor in the casing? This is a lot better, its also less prone to get the sensor knocked when off roading. Phil Ringwood has had a lot of success with this method and he says that the signal is a lot stronger than that of the ones used on the front pulley''

'' Errr, well, errr'' i said

''Well, its upto you, whichever you decide to use, but you need to let me know as we are shortly going to be needing the parts off you''

''No problems, i will have a bit of a think and get back to you on that''

''Ok, let me know as soon as you can please will you''

No problem'' I replied then hung up

Any ideas? How have you or others done it on a 4.6?

[Bowie69]

Machined the back of the pulley and bolted a trigger wheel to the back of it -IIRC I had one of Nige's prototypes. Works and has worked fine for a very long time.

If you use the flywheel you can't run EDIS without re-machining it to 36-1, which I would expect to be rather pricey.... benefit of EDIS is easy sparks, tried and tested, and waterproof coil packs (with some white grease!)

[Dave W]

It depends if you want to use MegaSquirt or MegaSquirt and EDIS. There's no reason at all why you can't use the standard crank sensor and flywheel together with the standard coil packs. The only real downside is that you can't run a Nige "cookie cutter" installation. Whilst there is nothing wrong with a cookie cutter installation there's also nothing wrong with rolling your own either.

It really comes down to how much work YOU want to do. If you want to buy something that is more or less "off the shelf" from Nige or a similar supplier and put in a minimum amount of work/time yourself then the cookie cutter LR4x4 build is probably your best bet.

Not sure what the "waterproof coil packs" thing is all about, the Land Rover ones are fine underwater, can't help but think there's a bit of FUD marketing going on from certain suppliers. IF you really want to believe there is an advantage to using a Ford Fiesta coil pack over a Land Rover V8 one then you can direct drive those as well of course without the EDIS but I've never seen a problem with the Land Rover packs (the later style ones that is). I've used the Land Rover packs with EDIS too and they work fine.

If you do decide to go for direct ignition drive the only thing I'd say is you should build a "coil driver" box to go under the bonnet, that way you can keep the high voltage noise around the MS ECU to a minimum. The only direct drive MS setup I ever had a problem with had the coil drivers inside the ECU box and I suspect the problems I saw were down to the noise they generated.

I'd also go for MS2-Extra or maybe even MS3, MS2-Extra offers a LOT of advantages over MS1-Extra, particularly with configuration and fuelling accuracy.

[Bingy]

Thanks for the input lads, it was more or less what i was wanting to hear. I think as my engine manufacturer works alongside the guy selliing MSi-extra kits, i think he is trying to get him involved as well. I am more than happy to fit one of Niges kits. As i am not a particularly good at electrickry, a electrical geek at my works has made the board up for me and is more than willing to continue with all the rest of the build wiring wise. My donation to him is that i make him a set of rock sliders for his discovery. No brainer in my eyes. Dave yes i have gone for niges full kit including the edis and ford coil packs. After having done a fair bit of reading, i didnt think that the flywheel setup would work with Megasquirt, but i thought id ask the question. One the plus side, it will be a lot easier to mess about with the cookie cutter than have to split the engine gearbox.

[FridgeFreezer]

To be clear: the flywheel tooth pattern doesn't work with Ford EDIS ignition modules, which is Nige's preferred setup as it's robust and more idiot-proof. It's what I run, and many others on here do too.

But MS itself can work with almost any trigger wheel pattern, but to run ignition on a V8 you have to bolt 4 ignition drivers into the ECU, add extra grounds, and set up the VR conditioning circuit. Or run low-voltage triggered coils and wire the spare outputs of the MS to them.

None of this is a problem in itself, and direct coil drive does have certain (relatively minor) benefits over EDIS, but if you want the easy life, follow Nige.

[cosecon]

One very good benefit of the EDIS is the "safe mode" 10 degrees advance option, that can take you home in case of fault.

[Bowie69]

Not sure what the "waterproof coil packs" thing is all about, the Land Rover ones are fine underwater, can't help but think there's a bit of FUD marketing going on from certain suppliers. IF you really want to believe there is an advantage to using a Ford Fiesta coil pack over a Land Rover V8 one then you can direct drive those as well of course without the EDIS but I've never seen a problem with the Land Rover packs (the later style ones that is). I've used the Land Rover packs with EDIS too and they work fine.

Agreed they are probably fine, but the Ford ones contain superior sealing, with an o-ring in the cap, and a tight clamp to hold it all in place. Why would I go and find LR coil packs when Ford EDIS ones are £10 a time on ebay.

[FridgeFreezer]

Ford ones have the advantage of being cheap & plentiful really, the sealing is quite nice and they've proven reliable.

[alanius]

I have the same problem on my 4.6 V8, how to put the trigger wheel on the crankshaft poulie. If I understand it correct, you machien the back of the poulie? So it is flat and then bolt the trigger wheel to the poulie? (any pictures)

[Hybrid_From_Hell]

Where to start

The general census was that if an engine needed top hatting , the block was basically scrap. One had never heard of top hatting.

Utter **** !. find a proper company, and if a prob I have conatcts I can give you, al be it not local to you, they see Top Hatting as "Normal Days work"

This is the sort of lathe work you need to have done :

Just have the rear face machined flat, and use the 2 x mountings, I have lost count of how many of these are now out there in MS V8 Land, but all are fine.

The other point re using the Std 4.6 is its inside the bellhousing and the std trigger teeth can fail, esp if bulkhead fills with nasty glop, sort of rumbles and rusts#

it to death.

For those reading this either thinking about MSing their V8 or doing it or wondering I do get hinkey when I here other MS companys dissing

or rubbishing other MS peeps. My logic and mission was and is simple

FULL kits (or anything in between to a single part) SIMPLE - FFS MS confuses me, espeically when I move out of my comfort zone, MS3 is slowly melting my head !

RELIABLE 4x4s live in an applalling environment, so simple + Reliable is good UNDERSTANDABLE & Easy to learn - Yes MS3 is far better than MS1 Extra - MS2 is better agfain, but for a lowly V8 and someone who is nervous and wnat to learn and get to grips with it MS1 does 99% of what you'll ever need on a V8 and then some, is cheaper, is robust, and there is here a wealth of help for free including me, I would rather have a simple relaible solid "Kit" and system than try to do all things.

Heres where I differ, if you wnat MS2, MS3, or special wierd stuff, if you wnat to rewrite code in the ECU and do whizzy things then there are those on LR4x4 who know more than me, and peeps like Phil Ringwood, who will probably forget more about MS than I know now. I specialise in a MS Market sector, it not that I am "Stuck" on MS1, but when I get the calls that say "Er it don't run" I am happy that I will get it to. Add in "What MS ECU have you got, what Firmware and where did you get the MSQ From and how did you wire it up and what options have you got in there" and phone calls are frankly not going to do it, especuially when the customer at the other end says "Whats firmware ....etc"

Hope this helps

Nig

[alanius]

problem solved, thanks Nigel!

[Hybrid_From_Hell]

[FridgeFreezer]

For info, I've just fitted this exact setup to my 4.6, the thickness of the pulley if machined as shown in Nige's photo is definitely more than 3-4mm, you can see by the number of threads in the bolt holes. I used longer bolts, from the back of the pulley with nylocks on the front. You actually don't need to take very much off at all, and could make it even less if you used countersunk socket screws instead of hex bolts (although I don't think it's really worth it).

The MS1 / MS2 / MS3 discussion pops up regularly - you can upgrade an MS1 to 2 or 3 so it's no great panic, but MS1 does everything most people need and keeps things simple, which is a good place to start from IMHO.

[iomlt]

the LR coil packs are fantastic as Dave W says, Keep them in the Landrover position behide the engine and therefor you can buy leads from any LR supplier and they all fit perfectly. If you want to splash out and help with waterproofing etc go and buy some magnacor leads and they are the prefect length and are designed to work around the engine. i can highly recommend this set up.. and it look rather neat.

[Bingy]

All sorted out now and done.

Just got to get it in the right position now

Thanks aagain chaps!

Now i need to start rebuilding this

[zim]

Just out of interest, why are you going manual in a challenge truck ? I think you need to rethink that and go auto.

G