Alisport intercoolers

[sammyb]

Been having a look at these as I'd like a little more poke out of the old girl as I've been doing a bit of towing lately and could do with a bit more 'umphh' so to speak..

Now how many people have used the Alisport ones? and which have they used? (full width or std size) and did they feel any benifit?

Is it worth the wedge?? before I go and spend a fair chunk of money..

any info or input into this is appreciated

Sam

[mmgemini]

Yep I have the standard Alli-Sport intercooler fitted to my 300Tdi station wagon. Alli-Sport optimised the fule pump when they fitted the intercooler. That with the removal of the exhause center bax makes a huge difference. That car is a lot more drivable with a lot more torque.

[sammyb]

big question is it worth the £355 for the smaller of the 2 intercoolers??

[oneandtwo]

I have a 300tdi 90 with standard size allisport intercooler, twisted "typhoon" stainless/silicon pipes, straight through front/centre pipes, discovery transfer box. I also have another completely factory standard 300tdi 90 apart from straight through front/centre pipes. After driving the modified 90, the standard one sems like it is powered by an old 2.5NA; The modified one easily out accelerates the standard one despite having the higher ratio disco transfer box.

I didn't do any of the mods on my 90, it came with them all fitted when I bought it so I can't say what was value for money or to what extent the fuel pump has been tweaked however it makes no visible smoke whatsoever under acceleartion.

On the strength of this I have just bought a full width allisport intercooler, silicon pipe kit and disco transfer box for my other 90 aiming to equal or hopefully top the performance of the modified one. The TIG welding is immaculate on the allisport intercooler and it all fits nicely although you do have to cut down the lip on the front panel and lose the lower two grille mounting screws if you go for a full width one.

[sammyb]

can you pm me how much you paid for all of them bits please matey? its either the cooler and all fittings or a winch lol

[oneandtwo]

I can't rememebr what the alisport full width one cost, £450 ish I think, I bought it a few months ago but not yet fitted it.

To be honest, given the excellent performance of my 90 with standard size uprated intercooler, you can get standard size uprated intercoolers from M&D engineering for around £280

[mmgemini]

big question is it worth the £355 for the smaller of the 2 intercoolers??

How much is the full size intercooler ? Is it worth that much for 7BHP. Also take into account the covering of the radiator by the full size intercooler.

[sammyb]

How much is the full size intercooler ? Is it worth that much for 7BHP. Also take into account the covering of the radiator by the full size intercooler.

Thats what I was thinking near enough £100 for 7BHP an would the full size jobbie covering the rad make that much of a difference??

[Boris113]

There are several threads on various forums (my internet here is very bad so can't find any links) about fitting a generic intercooler from ebay into a defender. You can pick up a huge alloy cosworth type for under £150, all that you would need is a way to mount it and some bits of silicon/alloy pipework. It's possible to do the whole lot for under £200.

HTH Harry

edit:

Something like this kit could be ideal: http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/3-UNIVERSAL-INTERCOOLER-KIT-TYPE-Y-600x300x76MM-BLUE-/110715725917?pt=UK_CarsParts_Vehicles_CarParts_SM&hash=item19c72be85d#ht_1140wt_604

[reb78]

How much is the full size intercooler ? Is it worth that much for 7BHP. Also take into account the covering of the radiator by the full size intercooler.

Brunel mentioned this when i spoke to them about their intercoolers a few years back. Jon said that some of the expedition companies were wary of taking folks with full size/front mounted intercoolers fitted as they could impede the radiator cooling in hot areas.

the other thing to consider is where you want the extra power - for me i wanted a little more oomph on the motorway and at those speeds the ram effect of air through the smaller normal size uprated intercooler will mean it has a similar effect to the front mounted larger one. At low speeds, i.e. off road, ram effect is almost nil, and so that is where surface area matters....

[sammyb]

I suppose there is no effect of ram air whilst off roading, so no gain there then. I primarily wanted just a bit more umpphh on A roads on my way to work..so do I get a full size jobbie? On slight worry is covering the rad completely

[reb78]

I suppose there is no effect of ram air whilst off roading, so no gain there then. I primarily wanted just a bit more umpphh on A roads on my way to work..so do I get a full size jobbie? On slight worry is covering the rad completely

If you only want extra on a roads, I'd go for a normal size uprated replacement. I would have thought ram effect would be good then, so surface area less important.

[sammyb]

think ill get saving up for a std size jobbie then! what other things can I do to get a bit more?

[vulcan bomber]

think ill get saving up for a std size jobbie then! what other things can I do to get a bit more?

Bigger turbo, ported head and a load of work to the injector pump.

[sammyb]

in what way with the turbo? is it just the same housing with a re worked compressor wheel?? I am a complete boob on the diesel tuning thing (only ever built NA monster engines lol)

[vulcan bomber]

turbo can be either a vnt from one of the rip off tuning companies or from a suitable donor or a hybrid from some companies that has a bigger compressor wheel and more lag because of it.

[reb78]

turbo can be either a vnt from one of the rip off tuning companies or from a suitable donor or a hybrid from some companies that has a bigger compressor wheel and more lag because of it.

Where do these provide the extra power (top end or low down)?

[vulcan bomber]

VNT: all over the rev range with the correct pump mods, vnt's can provide boost at idle engine rpm, so more air in the engine allows more fuel blah blah you know the rest.

Hybrid with bigger compressor: high up the rev range, bigger compressor can process the air more efficiantly at high turbo rpm. Low down, you get more lag because that little turbine wheel is having to work harder to spin the compressor up.

Imho, hybrid turbo's arnt much use on the tdi's due to the low settings on the injector pumps govenor spring.

[Somethingwitty]

I've got a full width Allisport on my 300Tdi - and it goes bloody well (1.410 box, 255/85 tyres, until recently a Roverdrive) to the extent that I'd very rarely drop out of overdrive 5th on the motorway (provided >70-75 it would still accelerate up most hills!) and I can usualy sit at 75-80 (and maybe a little more ;-) without many snags - so, as you can see, she recieves a thrashing! With that in mind, some observations:

Blocking the Rad - yes, indeed I am coolant temperature limited on hot days on the motorway - however, that is after some time of continuous canning it - I back off a fraction, open the vents and turn the heater on (or pre-emptively do this!) and it used to be like this before as well (recently new rad too) However, I think that at most people's 'normal' pace they won't have this issue... slow speed boggy / steep off-road in high ambient temperatures - yes I can see it being a potential issue, but a manageable one and unlikely to bite us in the UK.

A larger cooler will (neglecting pressure losses) be better in all circumstances, including the motorway - it will be better able to bring the air closer to ambient than the smaller one. Also important (and not often recognised) is that in intermittent boost (overtaking / steep hills) its larger mass will heat up less rapidly and thus be more efficient for longer than a smaller cooler.

Unfortunatly my home-made EGT gauge was too long in development and I stuck the intercooler on first (and played with the pump) - I thus have no idea of the EGT I was achieving on a standard set up; to measure a cooler's true worth in performance you ought to do a 'before & after' on the EGT then tweak the pump to achieve the same EGT with the cooler you had originally - of course you can turn it up further but I wonder how much of the 'performance benefit' we are reaping from the intercooler and how much from a pump adjustment that takes EGT (and thermal stresses) above where they were?

For those wondering, after my initial adjustments I finally got the EGT working.... Peak was 915C !!! (I backed off!)

I generally drive off the EGT now on the motorway, aiming for 720, happily accepting around 740-750 for short periods and using 800 when I feel the need (but immediately backing off when the moment is passed) It's been running like this a while, though clearly I have been sailing close to the wind!

In terms of turbo changes, it depends what you wish to achieve. There's no need initialy to get a bigger turbo - why not adjust the wastegate and get more boost first? if there's not enough (within it's design limits) for the pressure you want then fine, but it's pointless getting a bigger one unless you've run out of capacity on the original. Less lag may be bought with a hybrid but for the money I'd go VNT (if I could justify the expense).

Another anti-lag option is a boost controller. As the turbo pressure builds so the wastegate begins to crack open, aledgedly this happens at relatively low pressure (I did once try measuring on mine with a dial gauge and bike pump!) if you can delay the rise in pressure seen by the wastegate actuator you can delay when it cracks open and thus prolong the period when all the exhaust gas is driving the turbo. One day I'll get around to making something (proper engineering is far better than buying stuff all the time!).

Hope this helps... and for the record, I'm glad I got the large one! (if you're concerned about nickability etc then I sprayed several thin coats of POR 15 black on the front of mine and it's barely visible; not only has it stuck well it still seems to work, though I've again not done a proper trial, however most say it should make little odds since its only the very front mm or two that are covered.)

[sammyb]

thanks for all the opinions and info, I think I might just be swayed to getting a full width jobbie tho (when funds allow )

[Pastycrimper]

I have the full-width Alisport intercooler on my 300tdi - it was already fitted when I purchased the vehicle. The build quality of the IC is certainly very very good which we should expect given the price of them! I too have huge concerns about covering the rad though. I've found that on motorways and A-roads if I am in 5th gear and go up hills (theres quite a few on the A30 in cornwall) the temperature suddenly rises unless I slow right down sometimes even having to dropinto 4th and take it easy at 50mph which is annoying when I'd quite like to keep purring at 69mph. I have yet to find out whether this temp increase is caused my the ram effect being reduced into the rad when going fast on A-roads. Outside of this she always maintains a steady cool temp so it really concerns me. I may have just a bad rad (it looks OK but other threads on this forum suggest that there can still be bad flow internally. MD Egineering do a 4-core (uprated) version of the LR radiator which I am thinking about fitting. If this doesn't cure my problems then I must assume that it is the full-width causing the overheating issue. I cant figure it out - it seems that most 300tdis run fractionally cool and don't overheat unless there is something seriously wrong. Mine only does this when I have got to the top of a hill - after easing off the temo drops back to normal. This was really frustrating when driving up the M6 on a visit to Scotland last year so I'd be interested in any other input anyone has on this.

[cackshifter]

I have a full width allisport intercooler on a 300tdi 110 and if you believe the gauge,don't have overheating problems even when towing a horse trailer (though I have suffered airlocks - I think the header tank cap leaked slightly). It had a new radiator fitted when I bought it, so maybe that has prevented problems. I think there are also differences in water pump impeller and that can be a factor in whether it circulates rapidly or not. The fan moves a huge volume of air so unless the rad/intercooler is blocked I can't believe its your airflow that's the problem if the grille etc is clear. I must admit I have never found the intercooler gets more than slightly warm so I don't think it has much effect on air temp passing through the radiator. In winter I take the fan off for solo driving without problem either.

You used to be able to get radiators recored for less than a new one, and they could upgrade them at the same time - Marstons and Serck used to do it though maybe they don't exist now.

[Pastycrimper]

CAckshifter - I am inclined to agree with you. Well at least in that I have heard from others with full-width intercoolers that there cooling water temp is not affected. However the ram effect of air in through the front grill must surely be seriously restricted by having a massive IC in front of the cooler. Indeed the "whether you believe the gauge" is fair enough but the fact that my guage stays steady (just below half way) all of the time EXCEPT when I go up hills in 5th I find retty conclusive that I have a noticeable temperature increase but what the precise values are are unkown. This is quite a load on the engine. My Kerb weight is 2.6tonnes so in 5th at 67mph the moment I go up a steep hill thats a lot of work in such a high gear. I guess untill I have fully gone over my cooling system and replaced the radiator I'll wont know for sure.

What concerns me is that most landrovers can happily go up hills in 5th without raising their temp. I'd expect such things while twoing or with very heavy loads.

[cackshifter]

One other thing is maybe your thermostat isn't opening fully. I think the problem will turn out to be unrelated to airflow. When ypou encounter overheating, try putting on the heater with the fan on full. That will cause some extra cooling, if it has little effect maybe it's a circulation problem, whereas if you get a huge blast of heat and temp drops you are looking perhaps more at the radiator/stat. The stat is cheap and easy to replace without much draining, I'd go for that first unless you're absolutely sure it's Ok. I honestly don't believe the allisport (and other) guys would sell the full width intercoolers if they had such a bad effect on temp . I have heard of impellers coming loose on pumps and half gripping which would reduce circulation, and years ago bought a cheap pump for my (tuned)Mini which produced similar symptoms to this, when I looked the impeller was about half the size of the original.

[Pastycrimper]

Thanks for that. Surely if my stat wasn't opening properly then I'd see the issue more often?? I have wondered about the water pump. I actually have a new LR pump to fit when I get time. I'm hoping with that and a new 4-core rad that all my problems should be solved.