mnementh Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 Thought I'd man up and change the timing belt myself. Everything went smooth until I removed the cover and cranked it around, with the old belt, to see how it was aligned. As seen in the picture, when the crankshaft is in 12 o'clock and camshaft is aligned with the casing, the injection pump sprocket is roughly 180 degrees off. Is this a result of previous owner tinkering with the timing and should I then just take the easy way and transfer the timing to the new belt with some paint? The engine runs fine with great emission values during MOT. I have the tools to realign the timing, but should I fix it when it doesn't seem to be broken? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ejparrott Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 We've just been somewhere very similar with a 200. We changed the belt four years ago, without the proper timing tools because we didn't have them. That all went well, and the 110 has been running reasonably well ever since. It recently blew the O ring seal at the back of the FIP, and now in possesion of a tool for removing the FIP without removing the belt, we thought we'd be clever and do it the quick way. No such luck. We found exactly the same as you. What we think has happened, is that some PO has gone to do a belt, and instead of loosing off the three bolts that hold the pulley, they've loosed off the big nut in the middle, and lost the position of the hub on the FIP shaft, which I'm reliably informed isn't keyed. The engine still ran o k, but having swapped it out for another pump, which was properly timed, it has improved the pulling power considerably Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mnementh Posted August 9, 2012 Author Share Posted August 9, 2012 Is there some way to time the hub if I remove the pump from the casing? Is there some timing-marks on the pump hidden away under a coverplate? But then again, is it worth the trouble? It pulls a 3.5tons trailer without problem so there is plenty of oomph as it is. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simonb Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 Aren't there 2 slots in the flywheel for the timing? Move the engine round 180 degrees until the FIP sprocket and hole in its hub align, then see where the crank pointer is relative to the timing case. The slot in the flywheel should then be near enough in line with the wading plug hole. It defo won't run 180 degrees out and when you need to unbolt the FIP sprocket to align a new belt its only a few degrees that it has to be moved. Don't take any of it apart until you have checked what i have said otherwise you will be in a right mess! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mnementh Posted August 9, 2012 Author Share Posted August 9, 2012 But if I turn it 180 deg to get the FIP sprocket to align, won't then the cam-pulley be 180 deg out of alignment? Suppose I could just use tip-ex a new marking. But I think I'll just put paint on some cogs and corresponding belt-teeth and transfer the marks to the new belt and then keep an eye out for someone who can help me re-time the FIP shaft to it's pulley-adapter when the opportunity arises. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simonb Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 From the manual.... check no 1 cyl at just before TDC by valve gear rocking. Rotate crank clockwise, flywheel timing pin should now enter slot. FIP hub and sprocket should now also align and you can insert timing pin in FIP hub. Crank woodruf keys should align with arrow on timing chest and camshaft marker should be opposite its marker. You can't time off the camshaft/FIP alone as it runs at 1/2 crank speed. You cant just mark up the pulleys and swap the belts and hope to get the pulleys in the same place as the old belt will have stretched. Even a few degrees out and it will run rough, more and you will wreck your engine. Do a search on here for a full step by step guide, or get a manual or get someone to help you! I would tend to ignore the camshaft marker. If you set the engine to be at No1 TDC on compression stroke by looking at the valve gear, then the cam and crank will be aligned regardless of what the timing marker is on the cam pulley. Likewise since the engine runs, the FIP has to be then timed correctly. Try that and see what aligns with what. If the cam marker aligns ok, then the hub on the FIP has been moved relative to the shaft - which is a no no, instead of the pulley being moved relative to the hub. I think what you will then need to do is lock the FIP using the lock pin behind the timing case, remove the sprocket, undo the big nut to realign the hub to the shaft using the front/normal timing pin and then refit sprocket, unlock pump (back pin) and check its all still in alignment. However if your FIP hub has been moved I would take it all to a diesel engine specialist to sort out! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mnementh Posted August 9, 2012 Author Share Posted August 9, 2012 Got outside to my defender to get some better pictures. I also was only able to find only one slot on the flywheel. I got the 300tdi workshop manual, here's the page I'm using. This is the tools I got to align the FIP pulley and lock the flywheel at TDC. Here's when the flywheel is locked at TDC. Cam-pulley align perfectly. FIP-pulley approx 180 deg off. The last picture is when I lock the FIP pulley in correct alignment. Looking at the crankshaft woodruff it looks like the FIP is more or less exactly 180 deg off. Guess I'll just give it a try and if it runs rough I'll try and adjust it a little using the three bolts on the FIP pulley. If that doesn't help I'll bring the pump to a specialist. However I guess it means sending it over to Britain as I don't think I'll find one here in Sweden. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mnementh Posted August 9, 2012 Author Share Posted August 9, 2012 Any recommendations where I can send the pump? Might as well send it as a trade-in and get a refurbished back if it's possible? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simonb Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 Manual is ok and tools ok. In the last pic the woodruff on the crank is in the right place, as is the FIP sprocket. Does the timing pin fit in the flywheel? If yes, then it maybe the the cam sprocket which is out. Do you have a Bosch service agent located nearby or a diesel injector specialist? I would also change the pulley directely above the crank - there are grease marks on it where the grease has spun from the bearings. I normally change the idler and the tensioner everytime i do the belt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mnementh Posted August 9, 2012 Author Share Posted August 9, 2012 the woodruff on the crank is in the right place, as is the FIP sprocket. Does the timing pin fit in the flywheel? The FIP and the flywheel won't fit at the same time. The flywheel timing pin only fits when the cam is in alignment and the FIP is 180 deg out of alignment as in the third pic. Perhaps I was unclear with the pictures. I've sent out a shout on the swedish forum. But here in sweden the old specialists has almost disappeared completely. Here they only swap parts for new instead of trying to repair... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simonb Posted August 9, 2012 Share Posted August 9, 2012 Well in that case it confirms someone has undone the big nut on the FIP sprocket instead of using the 3x 10mm bolts. Try finding someone over there who has expertise in Bosch FIPs. They were very common prior to around 2000 when common rail came in and would have been fitted to other makes of car other than Land Rovers. They should be able to reset the hub on the FIP. Get that done before you attempt to change the belt, otherwise you will be really stuck. You still have a working engine at the moment! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheRecklessEngineer Posted August 10, 2012 Share Posted August 10, 2012 The Bosch VE is a very common pump - any diesel specialist should be able to line it up for you. Or....buy a dial gauge an you can time it yourself - the manual is floating around the internet, but I'm afraid with the internet connection I'm on I can't look it up for you. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vulcan bomber Posted August 10, 2012 Share Posted August 10, 2012 The Bosch VE is a very common pump - any diesel specialist should be able to line it up for you. Or....buy a dial gauge an you can time it yourself - the manual is floating around the internet, but I'm afraid with the internet connection I'm on I can't look it up for you. I'm yet to find the timing point for a landy pump. I might get round to dismembering my pump to get the measurment. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reb78 Posted August 10, 2012 Share Posted August 10, 2012 I'm yet to find the timing point for a landy pump. I might get round to dismembering my pump to get the measurment. There was a member on here that claimed to do it, but he never actually bothered to report back how.... i beleive he stormed off of LRO at some point when his welding was critiscised, so he may well have been upset by someone here and too never to be seen again! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vulcan bomber Posted August 10, 2012 Share Posted August 10, 2012 There was a member on here that claimed to do it, but he never actually bothered to report back how.... i beleive he stormed off of LRO at some point when his welding was critiscised, so he may well have been upset by someone here and too never to be seen again! Its easy, you just need to measure the possition of the delivery piston at TDC in the pump on number 1 cylinder. I just dont know the measurement.. if I did then there'd nowt stopping me or others rebuilding there own pumps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mnementh Posted August 10, 2012 Author Share Posted August 10, 2012 I went to a specialist today and he adjusted the pump for me for a tenner. He had some trouble finding the settings. But he found it after looking in an older system. It was 140 something on the dial. So guess it's either 140 thousands forward or backward from zero. There is actually a mark in the FIP casing where the woodruff slot should align when the pulley adaptor is in it's locked position. Okay, it wouldn't be perfect, but close enough to be able to get you home. I have yet to test the engine, didn't have a torquewrench for the belt tension. Will give it a go tomorrow morning! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reb78 Posted August 10, 2012 Share Posted August 10, 2012 Good job. I don't suppose you can get hold of the exact figure can you, then Dave (Vulcan Bomber) can tell the rest of us how to do it in the future :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ejparrott Posted August 11, 2012 Share Posted August 11, 2012 I'm glad you posted that......I was about to start stripping the spare engine to get in a position to do it, that saves me a job for today! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mnementh Posted August 11, 2012 Author Share Posted August 11, 2012 The engine ran just fine! So I will call the specialist Monday and thank him and also get the figures. However, I forgot to thighten the banjo for the boost signal, so lost it after a few miles. D'oh! Well, just have to pop in the local MC shop and get a new bolt and washers tomorrow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
simonb Posted August 12, 2012 Share Posted August 12, 2012 Well glad you have got it sorted. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CwazyWabbit Posted August 12, 2012 Share Posted August 12, 2012 ....However, I forgot to thighten the banjo for the boost signal, so lost it after a few miles. D'oh! Well, just have to pop in the local MC shop and get a new bolt and washers tomorrow. I did exactly the same thing after doing an engine swap, so glad it's not just me Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jode Posted August 18, 2012 Share Posted August 18, 2012 The trouble with timing the diesel is you've got several variables that must be aligned: the flywheel needs to be locked, however the locking slot goes through a complete circle every time the crank rotates through 360 degrees, so it is possible to lock it at the wrong spot for timing; likewise the timing mark on the case must align with the crank gear key, but again the gear does a full circle each time the crank rotates 360 and can show alignment when the timing is off. So starting off with the engine at TDC is critical to ensuring all the bits are properly synched to one another. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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