Farmerfred Posted July 19, 2013 Share Posted July 19, 2013 If not illegal then it should be! It really infuriates me to think of anyone 'experimenting' with a child's life, your children are supposed to bury you, not the other way around. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big.Mike Posted July 19, 2013 Share Posted July 19, 2013 If not illegal then it should be! It really infuriates me to think of anyone 'experimenting' with a child's life, your children are supposed to bury you, not the other way around. Why should it be illegal? I don't understand how it is any less safe than putting a child in a load area seat in a new car, unless you think they should be illegal too? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farmerfred Posted July 19, 2013 Share Posted July 19, 2013 I think you'll find that a child seat has to be fitted using the 3-point seat belt as fitted by the manufacturer of the vehicle, that is how child seats are designed to be used and not by using a lap belt which is what all these load area and folding seats are fitted with. Don't put convenience before your child's life please. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anderzander Posted July 19, 2013 Share Posted July 19, 2013 You can buy child seats that work with lap belts. Ours does - it works with either a 3 point or 2 point. http://www.britax.co.uk/car-seats/car-seats/eclipse Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farmerfred Posted July 19, 2013 Share Posted July 19, 2013 You should have watched the TV programme I watched a while ago, testing child car seats and the various ways they are fitted and held in position. All configurations of seats and belts are liable to cause injuries to a child, the level of which depends on the child seat, which way it faces, the type of seat belts in the vehicle holding the child seat, direction and speed of impact in an 'accident'. The conclusion of the test was that the two most injurious scenarios were 3 point car seat belts positioned too high and not put through the loops on the child seat resulting in the child being shot out of the seat underneath the seat belt and lap belts which resulted in the child being bent double and causing internal abdominal crush injuries. They tested one in the front seat of a car and discovered that the position in the dash of the passenger air bag was situated at an angle relevant to an adults upper body and head, in this instance the part of the dash panel covering the air bag when it went off took the top of the child dummies head off. A lot to consider. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
muddy Posted July 19, 2013 Share Posted July 19, 2013 Hence why you turn the airbag off for likkle baby's and the like...... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big.Mike Posted July 19, 2013 Share Posted July 19, 2013 I think you'll find that a child seat has to be fitted using the 3-point seat belt as fitted by the manufacturer of the vehicle, that is how child seats are designed to be used and not by using a lap belt which is what all these load area and folding seats are fitted with. Don't put convenience before your child's life please. Stop, please. I take your point children should be safe, that goes without saying. However, I'm not sure that the rest of what you're saying had any validity. It is more than possible to fit any defender with child seats in a perfectly safe manor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
justustwo Posted July 19, 2013 Share Posted July 19, 2013 Hi all good bunch of posts above and i have a hardtop 110 here in South Africa where are laws are much less rigid and unfortunatley the road accidents are absolutley horrendous with many a day having 20- 30 people killed in a SINGLE incident. I have a 3.5 year old which use to sit first in a rear facing approved car seat in the middle row seat in our series 3 then as she got over 9 kg went into a forward facing approved car seat. Unfortunatley ( ???)we now use a defender hardtop and now we put her in the (only)front passenger seat in a fwd facing car seat and mum has to climb into the load area and sit on a very uncomfortable wheel arch (unstrapped ! and ready to be a human projectile in any accident) Its a bit of an off joke but the land rover slogan of "ONE LIFE, LIVE IT !" .for me is more like : " ONE WIFE, LIVID ! " Now little one can physically fit well in the front centre seat and i find it very easy and comfortable to drive but i still want her properly strapped in (and preferrably ALSO in a car seat) . Could a 3.5 year old not be put into a middle seat with a racing style 5 point harness that i could have made up properly to suit her?? The other way i could do it would be to remove the actual centre seat and fix a car seat slightly further back to allow elbow room and fixed straight to the seat box with purpose made ratchet type straps and reinforced eye bolts and in this way she will have the original 5 point harness style strap of the car seat. Then mum can come back to the front and also be strapped in again and we can enjoy the "ONE LIFE, LIVE IT !" I know this would be frowned upon/illegal in the UK but i still feel that i can have more strength and safety than someone putting a baby seat in an old series landrover with some iffy construction/seatbelts/mechanics etc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big.Mike Posted July 19, 2013 Share Posted July 19, 2013 You should have watched the TV programme I watched a while ago, testing child car seats and the various ways they are fitted and held in position. All configurations of seats and belts are liable to cause injuries to a child, the level of which depends on the child seat, which way it faces, the type of seat belts in the vehicle holding the child seat, direction and speed of impact in an 'accident'. The conclusion of the test was that the two most injurious scenarios were 3 point car seat belts positioned too high and not put through the loops on the child seat resulting in the child being shot out of the seat underneath the seat belt and lap belts which resulted in the child being bent double and causing internal abdominal crush injuries. They tested one in the front seat of a car and discovered that the position in the dash of the passenger air bag was situated at an angle relevant to an adults upper body and head, in this instance the part of the dash panel covering the air bag when it went off took the top of the child dummies head off. A lot to consider. Again, stop. Giving your summary.of a program you watched is not useful. if you don't follow the instructions and warnings on every car seat, including turning off the airbags, then you probably shouldn't be driving full stop. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keycare Posted July 20, 2013 Share Posted July 20, 2013 The problem that I have with all of this is that I have three vehicles - a 110 csw, mazda bongo and honda crv. I also have several child seats - a result of having 4 kids aged 1, 8, 11 and 12. The only car that ANY of the child seats fit in to my satisfaction is the CRV and that is only because I have an ISOFIX seat, none of the other child seats can be secured with any confidence no matter how hard I pull the seat belts or how 'accurately' I follow the instructions. Now this annoys me most considerably as all of the non ISOFIX seat wobble and move from side-to-side. forward and up and don't seem to offer anywhere near the protection of the ISOFIX. So I want to fit ISOFIX mounting points to the other cars - not just so that I can carry my 1 year only in them (she already uses the other non-ISOFIX child seats in both Bongo and Defender), I just want her to be safer in the Bongo and Defender. Hence, my desire to fix the Ford Focus ISOFIX mounting bracket to the Defender and other than the load area, the other logical position is where the centre front seat used to be. Either way, I would fit an after marked 3-point seat-belt there so that other passengers would be safer than just a lap-belt. Over on the VWT4Forum a poster made the following comment... current EU law does dictate that all child passengers up to 3 years old must be restrained with a suitable child seat which must be attached to the vehicle. I haven't found the source of this statement in statute but suspect that there is no explicit definition of how the seat must be 'attached to the vehicle' Believe me I am interested in improving the safety of the child seats in the defender - not merely avoiding selling it because I can't fit all of my family in it ;-) they can already all fit in it...legally. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mean Green Posted July 20, 2013 Share Posted July 20, 2013 , it's not illegal to fit a child seat on a side facing dicky seat, Are you 100% sure on this? It is my understanding that it is illegal to have anyone under the age of (I think) 11 and/or under (i think) 135cm on inward facing seats - hence the reason Defenders no longer have them and Disco's moved to fwd facing 3rd row seats etc. It is also the reason that my Defender has only done 4k miles in the last 5 years - I almost always have my kids with me so use my 'car' instead. My daughters are now 7 & 4 and are both into booster seats rather than full car seats and it has made me think about taking the cubby box out and refitting the factory centre seat. But as has been discussed this only has a lap belt. I know that it is possible to retro fit a full inertia reel 3 point system but my MOT man has advised against it - not specifically as an MOT issue but more the fact that the reel needs to be fitted to very precise tolerences to ensure it works properly, his opinion is that were it his children he would prefer a factory fitted lap belt over an inertia that may not work when it was needed. He also suggested a harness rather than a diagonal. Having google'd it for ideas I came across a post on one of the forums about a "lap adapter" that uses the existing lap strap and converts it to a full harness - I was looking at it on my phone and now cant find the link. The post suggested it was available from Hellfrauds and was a securon product, but I cannot find mention of it on either website. Has anyone come across such an item? I have been down the forward facing seat route and in fact currently have one of the older style exmoor trim one fitted (ie not a lock'n'fold). TBH I am not happy with it and feel that it is very flimsy and there is little or no scope to strengthen it - in addition the seat belt cuts across both girls necks. So I tend not to use it at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big.Mike Posted July 20, 2013 Share Posted July 20, 2013 Are you 100% sure on this? Yes, the reason dicky seats have been removed to meet approvals and safety legislation on NEW cars, it is impossible to retrospectively legislate as you'd make thousands of motorists criminals without their knowledge. Think to when seatbelts were introduced, there was a national education campaign and no law to force motorists to retrofit to old cars. Some insurers won't insure inward facing seats. Which is the way these things tend to be policed now. As for exmoor trim seats, they need to be mounted so they are right at the back of the loadspace, if the seatbelt goes across your kids neck ( common in all cars) they need a booster seat and the booster should have a belt guide to stop this happening. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big.Mike Posted July 20, 2013 Share Posted July 20, 2013 The problem that I have with all of this is that I have three vehicles - a 110 csw, mazda bongo and honda crv. I also have several child seats - a result of having 4 kids aged 1, 8, 11 and 12. The only car that ANY of the child seats fit in to my satisfaction is the CRV and that is only because I have an ISOFIX seat, none of the other child seats can be secured with any confidence no matter how hard I pull the seat belts or how 'accurately' I follow the instructions. I'd look at the ratcheting seats, mine had a lock and hold feature that is independent of the seatbelt mechanism. it holds in so tight that it permanently marked the leather on my dad's seat when he borrowed the baby for a day. ( I think it's a maxi cosi. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Farmerfred Posted July 20, 2013 Share Posted July 20, 2013 Take a look at this and read EVERYTHING. It will take out all the guessing and might help make minds up. http://www.childcarseats.org.uk/law/index.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big.Mike Posted July 21, 2013 Share Posted July 21, 2013 Take a look at this and read EVERYTHING. It will take out all the guessing and might help make minds up. http://www.childcarseats.org.uk/law/index.htm Precisely why I said stop, you were guessing, I've spent months researching this stuff. This confirms all of the things I have said. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
keycare Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 The whole child seat thing is irritating and bewildering. People have carried children in cars forever yet car manufacturers seem to want to make things incredibly difficult for us. Many years ago (mid 90s) I saw a Ford Galaxy that had rear seats that could be converted into group 1/2/3 seats just by folding the seat back down (much like the centre armrest). So why don't all new cars have built-in child seats and boosters? Ford showed that it could be done and I am sure other manufacturers could do it as well. One of the reasons that children under 135cm need booster seats is that the seat belt crosses their neck/head rather than their chest, so why not make the seat belt mounting point height adjustable? But what we have ended up with is the situation where you have to try several child seat to find one that fits the best. It is ridiculous really. Mike: I dare say that your suggestion of a car seat with a ratchet mechanism to tighten the seatbelt is a good option. But why steer clear of ISOFIX? Is that an opinion reserved for the Defender or do you have some further insight from your research? Booster seats can be dangerous projectiles if not being sat on unless they are secured via ISOFIX. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 Volvo were doing built in booster seats in the 90s... but then you come to expect that from them I suppose. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anderzander Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 I used to lie across the parcel shelf of my Dad's Ford Zodiac .... How times have changed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie69 Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 7 people in a 1.0l metro for years, that was my childhood, but needs must. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anderzander Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 The seat I linked to is quite good - works with a lap belt or 3 point seat belt but has its own 5 point harness. It's type approved for planes too and does well on the tests. I've just offered it up into the centre seat space on my 90. My centre seat is out at the moment but the lap belt is still in. It will fit - though changing gear is a bit awkward and with the centre seat in (thus bringing the child seat up and forwards) I'd imagine it'd be very awkward. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big.Mike Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 Mike:I dare say that your suggestion of a car seat with a ratchet mechanism to tighten the seatbelt is a good option. But why steer clear of ISOFIX? Is that an opinion reserved for the Defender or do you have some further insight from your research? Booster seats can be dangerous projectiles if not being sat on unless they are secured via ISOFIX. ISO fix is a very restrictive ISO standard that includes the design of the seat base as much as the bracket... The way the ISO fix works is that the seat pivots around the clamp distributing load directly onto the seat base, if the seat isn't supportive enough or the right height then the clamps would have to take all of the load, which would not be good. (To say the least). Put it this way, a seatbelt can hold a 30 stone chap, an ISO fix bracket is designed to hold the 5 stone that is the baby plus the seat. I tested a seatbelt on a tensile testing machine, holds tonnes of potential and when they break you can hear it for miles! Baby seats have the seat belt wrapped around it. Cheers, Mike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anderzander Posted July 23, 2013 Share Posted July 23, 2013 Little update on my trial. It's actually quite good in the middle - but the centre lap belt is too long without the seat base there and thus won't secure the seat. I'll put the centre seat back and try it on there - though I expect it's a no go for the reasons I cited above. If not the only option would be to fit a shorter lap belt. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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