geoffbeaumont Posted September 24, 2006 Share Posted September 24, 2006 Well, seeing the old V8 is definitely okay as a base for a little project, I've now got to decide what to do with it. I'm not going to rebuild it as a 3.9, even though that would be relatively cheap. Way too much hassle rebuilding it and swopping out the engine just to get back to what I had before. So, what I have in mind is upping the capacity, fitting a high torque cam and hopefully some better heads. I fancy supercharging it, if I can get my hands on a supercharger at a price I can afford Time isn't really an issue - I'm doing the head gaskets on the 3.5 at the moment, and then it should be fine for quite a while - the constraint on this project is going to be money (or lack thereof). It'll be built to run well on LPG, petrol can be just 'limp home' but for reasons of practicality will probably still need to be available. Other considerations are that I'm definitely not, in the short term, going to be able to stretch to upgrading the autobox (standard ZF 4HP22) or any other part of the range rovers transmission. I also want to keep the BW viscous coupling centre diff, because I like it. It would therefore probably be a waste of money to build something capable of destroying the drivetrain as I'm not going to be able to use it to it's full potential. I fancy building a 5.0 stroker, but I suspect going for something more standard like a 4.6 would probably get me a lot more performance per pound. Oh, and the main object of this project is to have some fun and see what we can build, not to create the ultimate no-expense-spared off road racer, so we'll be doing as much of the work ourselves as possible. That said, I've only got very basic workshop facilities (my garage) and I've no illusions I can give John Eales a run for his money... Any advice would be appreciated - for instance: which jobs should I not consider doing myself? what's a reasonable spec to aim for given the above constraints? is large capacity and supercharging pointless/just going to blow up the first time I welly it? could I build an engine that'll be pretty decent normally aspirated and then add a supercharger as and when (if) I can get my hands on one, or does the engine spec need to be too different? And yes, I know I haven't given a budget - because I don't really know what it is yet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted September 25, 2006 Share Posted September 25, 2006 Geoff - this sounds like a bluddy brilliant project, could go very well indeed. I have been eyeing up the pile of V8 spares in my back garden, mostly heads & manifolds, and wondering what could be achieved with sacrificial bits & a die grinder. The spare 3.5 block is definitely gonna be a coffee table though, no doubt there B) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Posted September 25, 2006 Share Posted September 25, 2006 didnt clarkson do a ferrari sofa with the engine in the middle? sounds like plan that could be used then ebay'd... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted September 25, 2006 Share Posted September 25, 2006 He did a Porsche engine coffee table and made the electric seats into recliners, sold it for a fair bit IIRC. This one's going in my lounge just as soon as the lodger removes the bits of oily Kawasaki form my brand new carpet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geoffbeaumont Posted September 25, 2006 Author Share Posted September 25, 2006 Geoff - this sounds like a bluddy brilliant project, could go very well indeed. I have been eyeing up the pile of V8 spares in my back garden, mostly heads & manifolds, and wondering what could be achieved with sacrificial bits & a die grinder.The spare 3.5 block is definitely gonna be a coffee table though, no doubt there B) What's involved in modifying the heads yourself? General opinion seems to be that they're probably the biggest limitation of the standard LR RV8, but I've only got one pair and no experience (or clue...) so was thinking that was likely to be on the pay someone else list If I could find out a bit more about what actually makes a good head I'd be tempted to have a crack at it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted September 25, 2006 Share Posted September 25, 2006 Bill Shurvinton knows a lot more than is healthy about stuff like that, give him a call. As far as I can tell from stuff Nige has said about the Eales basically bigger holes in head = better, the challenge is knowing when to stop to keep it reliable and not drill through to the next hole along there is a hell of a lot of rubbish talked about stuff like that, there are also some very clever people out there who can work magic. The challenge is separating the two out... Scrap heads are easy enough to get, I have a pair of mullered ones being used as mockup engine in the 109 that you're welcome to when I've finished with them - don't fancy the P&P though! Also, Practical Performance Car have done a DIY flowbench writeup and talked a lot about head work, I will dig out the back issue(s) and get busy with the scanner... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geoffbeaumont Posted September 26, 2006 Author Share Posted September 26, 2006 Bill Shurvinton knows a lot more than is healthy about stuff like that, give him a call. Cheers - I'll drop him a line and see what he suggests. I can tell him the Megasquirt and EDIS bits he sold me are doing a sterling job in the rangie Scrap heads are easy enough to get, I have a pair of mullered ones being used as mockup engine in the 109 that you're welcome to when I've finished with them - don't fancy the P&P though! Might just take you up on that - have to use it as an excuse to do a shires event. It'll be a while before I start work on the heads, anyway. Got a stack of research and the bottom end to build first Also, Practical Performance Car have done a DIY flowbench writeup and talked a lot about head work, I will dig out the back issue(s) and get busy with the scanner... Sounds interesting. I've been looking around today and found a few books that look promising - especially the ones by a guy called David Vizard. Judging by the samples on Amazon he actually goes into the theory of why things work, with decent examples, rather than just spouting received wisdom. Anyone got any views on his books? Any other recommendations? I'm not after high level 'pretty pictures and plug the suppliers' type stuff, I'd like to actually finish up with some idea what I'm doing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hybrid_From_Hell Posted September 26, 2006 Share Posted September 26, 2006 Geoff Ok my 2p worth 1 - as the Yanks say in the land of "Hell yeah shoot" there is no substitute for cubes. a 5.2 vs 5.0 vs 4.8 vs 4.6 vs 4.2 will always win over the 3.9 vs the 3.5 "Cubes" or dispalcement is King 2 - other than cubes its basically fuel in and gases out. again in simple terms this = EFI and maybe larger injectors AFM and general fuelling 3. Then its "tweaks" Turbos and supercharger are good, but the internal strains on any increased cap engine can be the final straw, and both options are expensive. My mate spent many a happy lunch hours (his mate at work would not agree) with a 20,000 RPM Die grinder, whereby he made the inlet and exhaust ports for the heads and inlet manifold 1st match each iother and secondly a hugely amount bigger, then blending into the chambers, do not underestimate the time this will take and the noise you will endure Then up the compression, again my mate took 70 thou (yes 70) off the heads and this means the inlet manifiold only just lines up, the comp rate is est at nearly 12:1 If your feeling flush balance the entire engine reciprocating internals, nmakes it run smoother and rev freer, providing it doesn't explode Nige Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted September 26, 2006 Share Posted September 26, 2006 Maybe larger injectors AFM and general fuelling AFM? I remember those... Stock 3.9 Rover injectors (P/N ERR722) were used all the way to 4.6 and potentially have a bit more flow left in them. Anyone got the specs? After that, get to the scrappy and look for a couple of identical 150bhp+ 4-pots to rob the injectors from, these days not a difficult task really. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geoffbeaumont Posted September 26, 2006 Author Share Posted September 26, 2006 AFM? I remember those... Still got one at the moment, but it won't be there much longer - certainly not by the time this engine finds its way into the truck Stock 3.9 Rover injectors (P/N ERR722) were used all the way to 4.6 and potentially have a bit more flow left in them. Anyone got the specs? After that, get to the scrappy and look for a couple of identical 150bhp+ 4-pots to rob the injectors from, these days not a difficult task really. Hadn't thought of that. Although I'm not that fussed about petrol performance anyway, like I said it'll be set up to run best on LPG. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geoffbeaumont Posted September 26, 2006 Author Share Posted September 26, 2006 3. Then its "tweaks" Turbos and supercharger are good, but the internal strains on any increased cap engine can be the final straw, and both options are expensive. That much I'd figured - what I haven't got any idea of is how far you can go with capacity, charge pressure or combinations of the two before things start going bang. My mate spent many a happy lunch hours (his mate at work would not agree) with a 20,000 RPM Die grinder, whereby he made the inlet and exhaust ports for the heads and inlet manifold 1st match each iother and secondly a hugely amount bigger, then blending into the chambers, do not underestimate the time this will take and the noise you will endure Time I can manage - I don't have a deadline for this project - but noise is an issue. I live in a semi on a housing estate and I'd quite like to stay on speaking terms with the neighbours If your feeling flush balance the entire engine reciprocating internals, nmakes it run smoother and rev freer, providing it doesn't explode I was thinking this was necessary anyway. Is that not the case, then? Told you I was starting from a position of total ignorance! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hybrid_From_Hell Posted September 26, 2006 Share Posted September 26, 2006 Geoff OK Looking at it another way To build an engine for reasonable money and see big power, torque everywhere and not a cammy racey engine. 1. as big a capacity as you can get / afford 2. 3.9 or better heads 3 balance everything 4 up the compression to around no more than 11:1 then use comp head gaskets 5 use solid timing gears and duplex chain 6. match exhuast and inlets on head to exhuast and inlet manifolds, remove all casting "Lumps " where they show 7. go efi rather than carbs over 3.9CC efi is your call as to what, JAG 4.2 Injectors and AFM EAV for 4.6 and above if Lucas flapper tornado chip for Hotwire or Megasquirt the lot 8 Cams stay with a lumpy cam, not high lift long duration as makes it cammy and you loose bottom end grunt 9 use ARB studs for head etc etc 10 Use a RR Flywheel as the heavy flywheel helps with bottom end grunt 11 use std pushrods etc for reliability you do not need whizzy stuff its bling or V High RPM stuff. 12 Use a 20/50 classic oil change regaulrly 13 add bigger rad fans and oil cooler and BHP and Cubes = more heat 14 Use 4.6 exhuast manifolds or tubular ones big a bore as you can get 15 Spend final money with it on a $wd Rolling Road With the above you could have a huge range of BHP and £££ Options..... Nige Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted September 27, 2006 Share Posted September 27, 2006 2. 3.9 or better heads Is there a difference then? I thought it was just the later (4.2 / 4.6) heads that were skimmed to use comp gaskets but apart from that...? 7. go efi rather than carbs over 3.9CC efi is your call as to what, JAG 4.2 Injectors and AFM EAV for 4.6 and above if Lucas flapper tornado chip for Hotwire or Megasquirt the lot By the time you've bought jag injectors (to fool a stock ECU = bodge) or bought a chip for the flapper setup you could've squirted it and had infitinte tunability. And the option of NOS Plus you're stuck with a silly flappy thing in the inlet tract restricting power... In fact you could probably buy a MS and an innovate wideband lambda sensor (total cost ~£380) which would give you a great visibility for tuning. 9 use ARB studs for head etc etc You mean ARP surely Nige? BTW reading the Real Steel catalogue they do two sets of studs, one with the outer row (which you don't need) and one without that is about £30 less. My vote is wander round Sodbury with a few quid in your pocket - pay ~£10 for a 3.9 EFi setup to gain the big injectors (green stripe if memory serves) and see if you can stumble across any goodies, I got a complete SS exhaust system with tubular manifolds, heat wrapped, for £100 A later Thor inlet manifold (the bunch of bananas one) will give you a low down torque increase but then you're committed to going dizzyless as it won't fit otherwise. Other inlet option is a 4bbl carb manifold and one of Bill Shurvinton's 4bbl EFi throttle bodies, they're amazingly cheap for what they are and flow 700cfm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dollythelw Posted September 27, 2006 Share Posted September 27, 2006 chasing big CFM figures with a non S/C lump is not the way to build tractable engines, big CFM (relative to engine size) is handy for high end revs in normally aspirated unless you use bassy cams that will run out of puff higher in the rev range. The shape of the port and the inlet tract length is just as important - (its not unusual to add epoxy to inlet tracts to shape them - effectively choking them), then chuck overlap into the equation and its all getting fruity, if you want cheap stupidity (always good in my book ) hunt round eblag, get an Eaton M90 or 112 blower, some low comp pistions, find a cam with NO overlap or as close to it as possible and go from there. Or pick up the S/C, intercooled inlet tract etc from a 4 litre Jag and mod that - cheaper still just buy a complete Supercharged XJR300 lump, there was one on there yesterday for not a lot of pennies Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hybrid_From_Hell Posted September 27, 2006 Share Posted September 27, 2006 4BBL carbs run horrible off road, they do NOT like slopes or severe angles. Nige Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dollythelw Posted September 27, 2006 Share Posted September 27, 2006 I think Bills got some 4 barrel injection bods Nige, might be nice on a blow-through blower setup but not with a post injection intercooler - would knock the aerosol into next week Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
02GF74 Posted September 27, 2006 Share Posted September 27, 2006 2. 3.9 or better headsIs there a difference then? I thought it was just the later (4.2 / 4.6) heads that were skimmed to use comp gaskets but apart from that...? Don't the 3.9 have the additional cut out in the inlet ports for the fuel injectors? There may be other differences - make sure the heads have the same number of bolt holes in the sides for attaching ancilliaries. The p5/p6 head are deffo different - these have smaller diameter valves and short reach spark plug. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted September 27, 2006 Share Posted September 27, 2006 4BBL carbs run horrible off road, they do NOT like slopes or severe angles.Nige Carbs Nige? Go and wash your mouth out - I said 4 barrel THROTTLE BODIES It's bad enough you clinging onto EFi with moving parts, never mind going back to the dark ages of mechanical adding machines and clockwork fuelling devices... 02 - All EFi heads have small scallops for the injectors but they're 5 seconds work with the die grinder if they're not already there... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted September 27, 2006 Share Posted September 27, 2006 On the subject of throttle bodies, two of these could work nicely... eBlag Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hybrid_From_Hell Posted September 27, 2006 Share Posted September 27, 2006 Carbs Nige? Go and wash your mouth out - I said 4 barrel THROTTLE BODIES It's bad enough you clinging onto EFi with moving parts, never mind going back to the dark ages of mechanical adding machines and clockwork fuelling devices... At least you didn't comment on my wooden mach 5s with pig bladder tubes Nige Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geoffbeaumont Posted September 27, 2006 Author Share Posted September 27, 2006 On the subject of throttle bodies, two of these could work nicely... eBlag Do you mount the injectors in those, or are they just throttles? Could be quite a project in it's own right mounting them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geoffbeaumont Posted September 27, 2006 Author Share Posted September 27, 2006 At least you didn't comment on my wooden mach 5s with pig bladder tubes Nige Sounds very eco-friendly Nige You'll be getting awards from Greenpeace... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted September 27, 2006 Share Posted September 27, 2006 Do you mount the injectors in those, or are they just throttles? Could be quite a project in it's own right mounting them? AFAIK they have an injector in each, I could be wrong but there are definitely bike bits out there that are one, two, or four throttle bodies with an injector in each. Last word in bling B) BMW M's sometimes have them too, cousin has just chopped a set up to fit to his 316 - it's a 4-pot and he had a 6-body setup from an M3, done a very nice job and it's blingtastic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FridgeFreezer Posted September 28, 2006 Share Posted September 28, 2006 Geoff - just dug this out from the MSEFI forum: like the cadillac northstar, was wondering if there was a way to accomplish the same thing with a MS...or would you have to run 2 Meqasquirts? pretty much I would want to shut off fuel and spark to half the cylinders at anything less than say 9% throttle, mainly to get 4 cylinder fuel efficiency in a future v8 project of mine...was just wondering if it was possible/practical, obviously it can be done since cadillac did it...just wondering if MS is up to the task There's more to "displacement on demand" than just shutting off fuel and spark. They keep the valves closed too if I recall. http://www.msefi.com/viewtopic.php?t=9144 Electro-Hydraulic lifters anyone? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkieB Posted October 6, 2006 Share Posted October 6, 2006 I recall that enlarging the valves could easily give you 300Bhp Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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