Help...as always....blown seal in timing case

[tweetyduck]

Hi there, Well this is the first big(ish) problem in a long journey.

I've got a leak from the timing case. I took out the wading plug and out came 500ml of oil. So its either the Crank Seal of the Cam Seal. I took off the timing case lid and cleaned it out and filled her up with oil. We have about 2000km to go until we can get proper spares !

I have a timing kit kit so I can change the belt after its cleaned out. Question is the seals. Which ones.

ERR4575 Crank Front Seal.

ERR3356 Camshaft Front

ERR4710 O ring for Pully

and

ERR4576 OR ERR7143

I do not know what version my engine is as its a Land Rover XX Factory Replacement. So which seals of the later two do I need. I think it the ERR4576. Doesn't the other have metal part?

Anything else you can think I might need as this is a one time deal as my mother may be coming over with the parts.....and for a holiday.

Thanks In advance.

ps could this be at all related to the fitting of a new Turbo ???? More pressure somewhere ? Something else ?

I think all the items listed can be changed from the front but I've never done a Cam Seal....Is this the same as the Crank Seal and just done from the front ? Any other pearls of wisdom welcomed !

[Daan]

I had exactly the same thing. The cause is most probably a blocked breather pipe, as it was on mine. As for which seals, just order the lot, they are not big bucks to buy. the cam seal I replaced by removing the pulley, lever out the seal and carefully hammer in a new one, using a 2" or so tube as an extension.

Daan

[Maverik]

From memory all you want are the latest bits i.e. a crank pulley with the sides on to stop the timing belt from slipping off... I think you'll have to remove the timing chest if you're doing all the seals from memory, which involves removing the sump too have you done a 300tdi timing belt/chest before?

I would leave the wading plug out from now on if you haven't already...

[tweetyduck]

Done the timing three times now so this is the easy part. I have a full kit with two belts. The sump doesn't come off for the timing I was just wondering if all the seals are done from the front.

Can removing the Cam pully make timing it up harder ?

(I know the injection pully is a no no to remove meaning somrthing major needs doing with the timing)

[Maverik]

No removing both pulleys is easy and you have to do it to remove the timing chest. you also DO have to remove the oil sump to remove the timing chest.

When I had a. n. other oil leak from that area I didn't even attempt to remove the oil seals in situ I just removed the whole dam lot. - not difficult par say, but time consuming as there's a fair few bits to have to come off.

[tweetyduck]

i've never removed the sump and I've done the timing on mine twice and a disco once (in Syria). You know its a 300Tdi not 200.

So is the removal of the sump only required to change the cam seal as you need to remove something I've not removed before ??

I was wondering if the oil loss is minimal would topping up and keeping low revs stay the course to USA. I suppose if the seal goes completely the oil all escapes quite quickly ???

[simonb]

Cam seal, o ring behind crank sprocket and crank oil seal can all be changed without removing the timing chest, therefore no need to remove sump either. Cam sprocket comes off by undoing centre bolt - not 3 small ones. Slacken off centre bolt before removing belt. Sprocket is keyed to camshaft.

O ring usually comes off stuck inside crank sprocket when you remove that. You can then hook out crank oil seal. Outer crank seal in timing COVER, is just a press fit in as well.

[tweetyduck]

I thought so....but its 1 vs 1 .... or 1.5 if you count what I think as valid which normally it isn't.

If i order the parts best case is Tuesday next week !

My current feeling is try to get to the USA and get them delivered there. Any thoughts on trying to drive 900 km !

Its not pissing out,,,yet...

[simonb]

I change all of the seals each time I do the belt, too much aggro of taking it all apart again if they fail. Not much oil in the camshaft gallery, but crank seal has more "pressure" behind it. Leave wading plug out, go for a drive and see how much of a trail is left down the front of the sump.....

[tweetyduck]

Its not too much at the moment. We did 90km yesterday and didn't loose too much. Currently sat in Burger King and pondering what to do....

I did the seals with the belt before this one so its about 105,000km as I'm doing the belt at 50,000km. The belt is actually due in a few thousand kilometers time based on my increased maintenance regime.

[tweetyduck]

Am I right in thinking that if the oil pressure light comes on the car is seriously low on oil.....would there be any other warning ? I don;t think there's any other indication...is there?

[simonb]

You would be leaving a massive oil slick behind if it got bad enough to light the warning light!

[tweetyduck]

OK so we came 90km and its not lost much.

The place we found to camp is OK and they give discount for a weeks stay. Even with discount its still expensive but not too much to crash here. This is where we are getting the seals delivered to....They even have a proper address and Zip Code!

On a side note. I went into AutoZone Mexico to get some Oil. Got 5 liters and was given....

1)New Oil Filter

2)7 liter Drain Pan

3)Funnel

4)Absorbent Blue Roll (Strong Type)

5)Engine Flush Can

6)Hand Cleaner

Hows that for a freebee....!!!!

[Maverik]

Good effort, do you have an idea as to when you took the wading plug out last time? - just to give you an order of magnitude in time as to how long it took for that much oil to collect.

Last oil seal I had go was the camshaft oil seal, spat out a surprising amount of oil.

[cackshifter]

If you do have to remove the sump, it's really very easy to do esp for a man of your calibre - just a lot of bolts, I suppose it can be a bit awkward to thread it through the other gubbins underneath. But don't do it if it is windy, as all the dust, sand etc will get blown onto your crank. Need rtv to seal it to put it back.

[tweetyduck]

about the wading plug. i'm not sure. it was at least a couple of weeks. i used to check the belt and oil every week through the hole but got lazy...

As for the dust...its the rule of road side maintenance. as soon as i start the wind picks up. Every bloody time. I might check into a love motel as they have lovely garages....see my blog for photos.

[FridgeFreezer]

Oil light is a warning that it's too late really, they come on at *very* low pressure, if in doubt buy yourself an oil pressure gauge (even a cheapo ropey one just as a rough indication) for the peace of mind.

You could also wire a 12v buzzer (EG reversing beeper) to the oil light, driving long distances in sun + dust it might wake you up quicker than a small red light glowing.

If you're stuck for seals you might find they can be replaced with a standard industrial oil seal much more easily available, all you need is the size. People who sell bearings or hydraulics (or pumps, or gears, or motors) will likely be able to source them.

[tweetyduck]

I though about that but i looked online for a alternative seal for say a different car. Like a GM / Dodge and came up with nothing. I went right through the Corteco list and then onto partsfinder and got nowt. On the list there's only a couple in this size bracket which IIRC was 56 - 71 - 9.5 or something like.

The parts should be here Monday for all of £30 so we aren't going far until then. The leak may not be as bad as it could be we lost little in 90km yesterday. Nothing that shows up on a dipstick at any rate.

Do you think a small buzzer directly across the bulb would work ? and whilst I'm asking....is there a way of retrofitting a lights on buzzer when the engine is off ??? Is this just a relay change somewhere ?

[FridgeFreezer]

Buzzer across the bulb should work fine unless it's a foghorn.

[tweetyduck]

is there a trick to removing the cam pully. How do you lock it to get the nut off and then back on at 80Nm.

I'm doing this now....!

Thanks

[simonb]

I usually just leave the belt on first, then crack the centre nut. It was 4 years ago I last did it - will be doing it again soon. Can't remember if there is a way if putting a bar through the sprocket to lock it against the timing chest. You can always put it in gear and get someone to stand on the brakes if all else fails.

[tweetyduck]

Thanks.

[Maverik]

Hmm a tricky one, I usually end up jamming the pulley with something that wont damage it, it does help to leave the belt on and give a quick shock load to each of the bolts, equally awkward putting the thing back on too...