Series Steering for Power Steering

[De Ranged]

Gidday

Doing some research for the legal side of a new project

I'm looking at building up a 109 Slla into a tow wagon/camper, I'm putting together the application for approval of the modifications, one of the mods I want to do is power steering, the certifier I'm dealing with is in the process of gaining approval to be allowed to approve steering mods so I'm providing him with alot more detail than I normally do, part of this is detailing standard steering

I still have standard steering on my Slll what I'd like to know is.... is this the same on the Slla

At this stage I'm planing on using either a hilux or a surf power steering box, but this will depend alot on what he is able to work through

[Pollywog]

Depending on the age I think there are some minor differences with the steering box, certainly the column changed at some point during 2/2a production as early type steering wheels were held on with a bolt rather than a nut.

But essentially yes the steering systems both work in the same way.

Will the Toyota box mount on the outside of the chassis ala the p38 box?

[De Ranged]

The choice of what I do will depend on what the certifier is allowed to do.... the easiest for me would be the surf box and cut it into the chassis on the mount but this would mean a whole new column and I suspect beyound what he can allow, so I'm considering fitting a hilux power steer box that would mount on the chassis and work on the push pull bar up the side of the chassis as I think I could fit this into the current system but I haven't looked too closely yet

[deep]

My last Series 3 came with a ram affair that is supposed to give power assistance to the standard steering. I'm told it came off a Mk IV Zephyr. It wasn't fitted and I have no idea how it actually works (though I still have it, in case I ever get the impetus to do something with it!) but I have read that it is a good way to get power steering without too much structural modification. Have you looked into that?

Did you find a Series II? I sent you a message about that one I talked about when I was up there a few weeks back.

Don

[De Ranged]

No haven't looked at any other options yet, curious as to how they are controling the ram, you can use a power steering box valve setup to control one (Ram assist) and it very common on pirate4x4 but if you don't have it you'd need an orbital steering box or similar

havn't rung him yet about that station wagon but will be today (thank you for the number), was hoping to get a local one but missed out on it.... it would have been really good it was a Dormar model with the pop up roof in really good condition

[bill van snorkle]

I'm certainly no engineer, but having seen the occasional steering relay shaft twisted in 2 with just manual steering, I would approve your suggestion of linking a powered box to the LandRovers longditudal push/pull draglink.

60/62 series LandCruiser box with clamp on mount on outside of chassis rail found favour with the Australian engineer I used on a couple of occasions. There is a sweet spot for mounting location that will give tyre clearance during articulation/steering lock if you use 7.50x16s on forward control model wheel rims.

[FridgeFreezer]

Would it be any help that the Defender (non-PAS then later PAS) column bolts to a Series bulkhead? The chassis end still needs mods but the top is a nut & bolt affair giving you a more normal rotating shaft rather than the push/pull.

[Snagger]

The hydraulic ram system is available as a kit from Heystee (formerly TI Console). It uses the existing Series steering system and has this ram act in addition, connected to one dumb iron and to the drag link. Steering inputs move the drag link, which operates a proportioning valve on the ram so that the ram follows the drag link. In essence, the ram is always trying to close its valve, and do will follow the drag link in each direction. I have been told that there is a little lag in the system, but have never seen it in the flesh let alone tried it. Benefits of the system are that it is bolt-on, so should be easy for certification/insurance, and if it fails, the original components of the system will revert to unassisted steering little heavier than before installation. Make sure you're sitting down when you read its price.

As Fridge says, the cheapest and most common conversion is to fit Defender steering. The column is a straight swap and the drag link geometry should be little different (the length may need adjustment). It's main issue is that you need to reinforce the chassis to mount the PAS box. Most people move the front cross member forwards as the Defender/Discover/RRC steering box is normally mounted on the inboard face of the chassis, in a position similar to the existing steering relay. You could use a P38 steering box which sits outboard, or indeed a LHD Defender box on a RHD vehicle (and vice versa) to mount the box outboard, but you'd still need some reinforcement for the mountings. A certifier should be convinced by the fact that this uses standard LR components, so as long as the PAS box mounting is done suitably, then there should be no concerns over strength or suitability.

[deep]

Thanks for the heads up about how the ram works. I really couldn't figure it out. However, the bloke I bought it off is quite the brain box who modifies Land Rovers with a passion, inspiration and budget that makes my eyes water and if he thought it would work, I'm sure it would!

Reese, if you're ever down this way, you could have a look at the ram, or I could bring it up in a few week when I'm in the bay. P.S. Dormobile would have been really cool! It really would not be hard to make a roof like that for a Series LR though.

[deep]

Actually, now I think about it, I had a ram system on my old horse truck, a D series Ford. I remember it worked to a point but couldn't be rushed, partly off-setting the value of power assistance in an off-road machine. However, that just could be because of the sheer mass involved? The feedback on the road was nice though.

[Snagger]

There is another way, which is to fit the electric steering from a modern car to the steering column of the SII/SIII, but that could have certification implications because of the cutting and welding of the inner column (even though the worm gear at the bottom is welded on).

To be honest, neither the electric or ram systems take my fancy - they leave the comparatively vague and low geared original system in place, while the Defender/P38 system gives much tighter feel and higher gearing as well as reduced effort.

[deep]

There is another way, which is to fit the electric steering from a modern car to the steering column of the SII/SIII, but that could have certification implications because of the cutting and welding of the inner column (even though the worm gear at the bottom is welded on).

To be honest, neither the electric or ram systems take my fancy - they leave the comparatively vague and low geared original system in place, while the Defender/P38 system gives much tighter feel and higher gearing as well as reduced effort.

I'm not usually a fan of power steering but I have to agree the feel of the steering in a Defender is a big improvement. Especially compared to a Stage One with big tyres and a steering damper...

[bill van snorkle]

My last post should of course read " I would NOT approve your suggestion of linking a powered box to et etc.

[De Ranged]

lol Don't panic Bill I do steering conversions on hilux's all the time, to be honest I'd replace most of the balljoint links with 80 series cruiser stuff especially that low hanging tie-rod, beefing up the current system is nothing on our system the issue is geometry, so the relay box in the corner of the chassis needs strengthening?

Thanks Don, I'll be down your way in a couple of weekends hopefully to pick up the truck, Roy wants me to come see it first before we talk coin but I'll have the trailer there so if we hit a deal lol I'll be talking with the certifier this afternoon about options will mention the ram setup

Snagger the electric system isn't an option legally we can't use that here or full hydro, the ram setup of Don's maybe an option

My problem isn't how to do this lol its how to get it simple enough that my local certifier who is going through the process of getting accepted for doing steering that he can process it

The most obvious is replacing the worm gear box on the firewall with a hilux power steer box, this is going to be alot of work as the box will be upside down so I'm going to have to tap a bleed point into it, then I have to mount it to the column, the firewall will require some form of reinforcing... then the fun job I'll have to make a new steering arm to bolt on, our rules state no welds to any active steering components... that means I have to carve this out of a solid piece right down to the tapered spline to fit to the steering box ..... for those that know little about machining this is a real challenge

I could come up with so many easier options with the junk parts I have in the shed, the defender option would be nice but would be beyound my pocket, post series stuff over here is silly money also it would be too many parts replaced to allow my certifier to do it

[deep]

lol Don't panic Bill I do steering conversions on hilux's all the time, to be honest I'd replace most of the balljoint links with 80 series cruiser stuff especially that low hanging tie-rod, beefing up the current system is nothing on our system the issue is geometry, so the relay box in the corner of the chassis needs strengthening?

Thanks Don, I'll be down your way in a couple of weekends hopefully to pick up the truck, Roy wants me to come see it first before we talk coin but I'll have the trailer there so if we hit a deal lol I'll be talking with the certifier this afternoon about options will mention the ram setup

Snagger the electric system isn't an option legally we can't use that here or full hydro, the ram setup of Don's maybe an option

Take a big trailer. Roy is 85 and the family are anxious to start clearing some of the stuff from his shed before he gets too old - will be worth a scavenge! (Roy made the news last year when he got lost on a hunting trip and walked out two days later. He's very tough.)

I'll follow your steering solutions with interest. I've never minded Series steering before but adding a winch, heavy bullbar, big tyres and steering damper to the front have made me wonder about a similar conversion. Must be getting old and feeble.

[De Ranged]

Just off the phone with the certifier

I laid out all the options and the warning from bill (backed up with research from other sites) about the bellcrank relay and I'm going to submit on a full steering and column change.... so depending on how it fits with the Range Rover steering arms, I'll probably go with a 60 series cruiser box and a steering column off a early hilux I also have a Rover 600 more commonly known as a honda accord I might look at that.... see which one adapts better... being a cheap person for me its what i got more than whats best lol

Will have the Ute deck as well Don lol love old sheds like that guess it brings out the horder in me lol

Oh and since this is a test example for my certifier this will be on record with Justin the chairman for LVVTA Don so if you want to copy all good I'll give you the rego of the truck and they will be able to pull up the details

[Gazzar]

Have you looked at the Teri Ann Wakeman site? She covers a lot of the changes and documents a few conversions.

I think the P38a conversion is the simplest, safest and strongest conversion. But I accept that local supply is very important. I reckon you could adapt a series steering column to accept a range rover (or Toyota) column link without welding.

Machine the lower end to take a bearing about an inch up, and mill the splines on the remaining parts to accept the link.

Mounting a toyota PAS box on the outside of the chassis rail should be ok, then swapping the drop link until you get the drag link geometry right.

Side issue, just checking, welding on components is totally forbidden, or is it that you have to get the welded components x-rayed and certified?

Please post up progress, fascinating topic, as I've accepted that my vapour build 109 CSW has to be spouse friendly!

[bill van snorkle]

Have you looked at the Teri Ann Wakeman site? She covers a lot of the changes and documents a few conversions.

I think the P38a conversion is the simplest, safest and strongest conversion. But I accept that local supply is very important. I reckon you could adapt a series steering column to accept a range rover (or Toyota) column link without welding.

Machine the lower end to take a bearing about an inch up, and mill the splines on the remaining parts to accept the link.

Mounting a toyota PAS box on the outside of the chassis rail should be ok, then swapping the drop link until you get the drag link geometry right.

I've got that De Ja Vu feeling again, but no one took any notice last time around, so here I go again!

Some years ago I posted a link to my photo storage provider of a series of detailed photographs of a Toyota 60 power steering box conversion to a series 3. Unfortunately I didn't back the photos up and they disappeared into the ether! Unfortunately that particular LandRover now resides a couple of hundred miles from where I live, so taking photos of the conversion again isn't a proposition.

The conversion itself addressed all the approving engineers concerns re cutting/welding shafts, crossmember mods, welding to chassis etc. Do any old timers here recall that post? and/or copied and saved the photos. It was a fairly easy, strong and economical conversion, utilising the original series outer steering column and chassis mounting, with steering box housing cut away a bit to clear the steering shaft U joint attached to the bottom half of a RangeRover collapsible steering column shaft, fitted to the top half of the Series column shaft, that had two flats filed on the bottom end that slid into the RangeRover half. The RangeRover rubber donut flange minus donut was bolted to the end of a 2 1/2" dia hollow steel bar, with the other end of the bar bolted to a Toyota donut flange, thus avoiding the expense of having a special adaptor shaft spline cut.

The Toy steering box was bolted to a 1/2" thick steel mounting plate with 1/2" countersunk Unbrako bolts and nuts, and the mounting plate in turn was clamp bolted to the outside of the chassis with 4 of 1/2" x 5" UNF bolts and nuts with crush tubes above and below the top and bottom plates of the chassis box section, thereby doing away with the need to drill holes or weld to the chassis.

Bill.

[Snagger]

I vaguely recall the post, Bill. It was similar to what I had in mind using a P38 box, which not only fits outboard of the chassis but whose bolt holes are conveniently spaced to fit above and below the chassis rail, needing just some reinforcing plates and anti-crush tubes to clamp to the chassis with no chassis alteration. The P38 box is also more robust and reliable than the 4-bolt Adwest type used on the Defender/Discovery/RRC, and has lighter feel, and may even be cheaper froma scrappy because they are less in demand, being more reliable.

[De Ranged]

Our system is a bit different to yours Bill there are no engineers involved (that would be the obvious answer lol).... we have mechanics that have lots of mechanic'ing experience that can apply to a special authority that if they can show a personal passion for vehicles eg 5 yrs of motor sport club membership, they are then deemed good enough to assess engine swops, brake, gear/drive train upgrades after a bit of this (no set time) they can apply for other add on such as steering, suspension, disability etc because of this our system at times gets stupidly limiting and steering is the worst no welds to any moving component you have to have a collaspeable steering column etc some of it yes but other restrictions...

lol this is turning into a rant about our system sorry...

Worked out part of the system still going to use the Hilux solid axle power steer box, turned 90degrees, it will go down the inside of the chassis rail with the pitman arm facing forward.... it will take a bit to mount but there is plenty of room and it gets it away from the wheel so I don't loose any steering.... got to run some geometry on CAD to work out if I can fit the range rover axle under there, then I just have to sort the steering column

[Gazzar]

Isn't the track link for the Range Rover axle in the same place as the leaf spring? Or are you going coil, too?

[bill van snorkle]

I vaguely recall the post, Bill. It was similar to what I had in mind using a P38 box, which not only fits outboard of the chassis but whose bolt holes are conveniently spaced to fit above and below the chassis rail, needing just some reinforcing plates and anti-crush tubes to clamp to the chassis with no chassis alteration. The P38 box is also more robust and reliable than the 4-bolt Adwest type used on the Defender/Discovery/RRC, and has lighter feel, and may even be cheaper froma scrappy because they are less in demand, being more reliable.

I'm afraid the P38 series were not common enough over here for many to end up in self service breaking yards. So prices for their steering boxes from specialist breakers are $$$$. Besides, when doing modifications, I'd rather not use componentry built to LandRover specifications for planned obsolesence, when a Toyota component will do a better more reliable job at less cost.

[bill van snorkle]

Our system is a bit different to yours Bill there are no engineers involved (that would be the obvious answer lol).... we have mechanics that have lots of mechanic'ing experience

Although I have relatives from NZ, I've never actually been there. I recall that it really wasn't all that long ago that the average age of mostly British made cars on NZ roads was in excess of 20 years.

To be able to keep thousands of British cars in good fettle for all those years does speak volumes for the abilities and resourcefulness of Kiwi mechanics.

[deep]

Although I have relatives from NZ, I've never actually been there. I recall that it really wasn't all that long ago that the average age of mostly British made cars on NZ roads was in excess of 20 years.

To be able to keep thousands of British cars in good fettle for all those years does speak volumes for the abilities and resourcefulness of Kiwi mechanics.

Ah, but that was the advantage of old British cars. They were dead simple to work on and parts were common across many models. One of the huge advantage of Series Land Rovers too. I'd say you would need a lot more ability to keep most modern cars going after twenty years, which is why they hit the scrap heap so much sooner now, despite being up for many more miles before needing surgery.

Sadly, though, you are talking about thirty years ago. Since then, our roads have been flooded with a massive influx of second hand cars from Japan, which are landed here for peanuts. Many of those get scrapped early because they weren't sold new here and the parts supply isn't great (for example, I tried to get a starter motor for a friend's c.1982 2l Mitsubishi and found there were six different possible motors and they didn't interchange!).

[bill van snorkle]

Ah, but that was the advantage of old British cars. They were dead simple to work on and parts were common across many models. One of the huge advantage of Series Land Rovers too. I'd say you would need a lot more ability to keep most modern cars going after twenty years, which is why they hit the scrap heap so much sooner now, despite being up for many more miles before needing surgery.

Sadly, though, you are talking about thirty years ago. Since then, our roads have been flooded with a massive influx of second hand cars from Japan, which are landed here for peanuts. Many of those get scrapped early because they weren't sold new here and the parts supply isn't great (for example, I tried to get a starter motor for a friend's c.1982 2l Mitsubishi and found there were six different possible motors and they didn't interchange!).

Gee, was it 30 years ago already? ! !. I am beginning to feel real old now. Doesn't time fly when you are having fun .