bill van snorkle Posted January 23, 2014 Share Posted January 23, 2014 Badly wish Ashcroft made an HD version. I doubt there is any need for that. just fit genuine chrome or Teflon ones. If any of that rubbish you and your friends have broken is genuine Rover stuff then that will be the last straw for me. I'd scrap my 3 LandRovers and go have a talk with Mr Toyota ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertspark Posted January 23, 2014 Share Posted January 23, 2014 Isn't there a minimum British Standard for quality that non genuine parts suppliers have to adhere to, at least on components critical to vehicle safety?As Robert suggested earlier, the suppliers will not voluntarily stand up and admit there is a problem due to the massive costs involved with recall/replacement, plus reimbursement of any labour charges, and the odd insurance claims for vehicle damage or personal injury due to failure of these POS. If you UK enthusiasts want your LandRover part suppliers to ever lift their game, I think there is a possible legal opportunity here with the swivel issue to expose these shonky operators, and to either force them out of business, or force them to cease stocking and selling unsafe substandard garbage. I think trying to force them out of business is self defeating (how many parts suppliers will be left... if it's only LR, can you imagine the parts costs potentially)? We should be making them aware of the issues, and they in turn should be working with us to assure us that the problems / concerns are being investigated and a solution or some advice sought. The swivel issue is a serious one, but we don't really know the real extent of the problem or if it's been resolved by current stock and quality assurance procedures. Lets try to work with the box shifters to get a solution.... we just need to get a rep from each company on here (which is what I was trying to instigate / cajole them into [there must be at least one employee aware of this ongoing discussion]. Let me be frank, I buy Ashcrofts products, Nige's and Si's (not much I have one 90) [not advertising, I do not know any of them personally / ever met them face to face]), I have had absolutely no issue with their products, but I'm sure that the three of them (and any other companies / owners of businesses I'm not aware of) trawl through these threads in part to help and in part to pickup on if anyone has any issues with the products (not that I've seen any, but I've not been a prolific forum user until late), but I'm damn sure they will pipe up and look into anything if someone says anything. It should not be about slagging the box shifters (rebranding parts distributors), it should be about them appearing to be engaged with their market..... and I would have said we are that market (or at least the ones most likely to pipe up and give them some rapid feedback).... in an open forum that we should be able to engage other users and someone say.... you've been a muppet and installed it wrong, or overloaded it.... or hey I've had that problem too, but I thought it was just my setup. Before getting off / shot off the soap box, has anyone tried contacting any of them or any employees of them to make them aware of this thread? This could be a really good and engaging thread for them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CwazyWabbit Posted January 23, 2014 Share Posted January 23, 2014 I tried notifying them of a previous thread (can't remember which one) and it got ignored completely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redneck Posted January 23, 2014 Share Posted January 23, 2014 Swivel balls aside, if there wasn't a market for cheap junk, the manufacturers wouldn't be in business, how many on here haven't looked at oem/quality parts and then bought the cheap pattern junk because of the cost difference. Buying quality kit goes against many peoples nature these days, just take a look at any high street. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheRecklessEngineer Posted January 23, 2014 Share Posted January 23, 2014 I think you would have to break a set that had been fitted by a land rover dealer to a completely standard defender, and break them driving legally on the road to have any chance in court I disagree. A standard vehicle yes, but a Defender is an off road vehicle - built and marketed as such. I would see no issue with breaking one off road. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigelw Posted January 23, 2014 Share Posted January 23, 2014 I did send an email to make them aware of this thread and asked them to come on board and be inqusitive of peoples experiences. Could be that the thought of being bombarded with slagging off posts is not appealing? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CwazyWabbit Posted January 23, 2014 Share Posted January 23, 2014 That as maybe Nige but you would think they might at least reply to the email? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigelw Posted January 23, 2014 Share Posted January 23, 2014 I bow down to my insignifigance and buy genuine where possible unless I fancy something in particular. Will check email now, maybe they did but I am sporadic at best checking my mail. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Noisy Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 I'm certainly looking forward to extra confidence when I go wheeling with my chrome balls on Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jamie_grieve Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 Is there not some kind of legal getout clause where 'part number used for reference purposes only'? I understand it means they can sell any old carp they like because even if it looks like a swivel ball and smells like a swivel ball and was found using an OEM part number it is in fact a large paper weight that only resembles in all but function a swivel ball. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill van snorkle Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 I'm certainly looking forward to extra confidence when I go wheeling with my chrome balls on Mr Noisey previously wrote on page 4. "I don't trust genuine LR balls.I think they will be identical." So where did this new found confidence come from? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mike4444244 Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 I disagree. A standard vehicle yes, but a Defender is an off road vehicle - built and marketed as such. I would see no issue with breaking one off road. I bet a lawyer could wriggle out even if the breakage was videoed happening as 'off-road use' is a massive grey area, ie how extreme do land rover say you can go? a muddy green lane or full Orange ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CwazyWabbit Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 Mr Noisey previously wrote on page 4. "I don't trust genuine LR balls.I think they will be identical." So where did this new found confidence come from? That original quote of his was with reference to genuine teflon balls as opposed to genuine chrome balls. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Noisy Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 Indeed, apologies for the ambiguity. I have a pair of early 1990s vintage balls in superb condition. I however would not want to trust a pair of balls I bought from land rover today! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill van snorkle Posted January 24, 2014 Share Posted January 24, 2014 Indeed, apologies for the ambiguity. I have a pair of early 1990s vintage balls in superb condition. I however would not want to trust a pair of balls I bought from land rover today! Ok with you now. When they eventually begin to deteriorate, I would be running the CV joints in grease rather than use those dodgy cast iron balls. And that's another thing -- I very much doubt the cast iron balls could withstand the awfulness that they are subjected to when a CV joint explodes. One more point I would make is that if those cast iron balls were original equipment on production LandRovers, or even sold by the company as genuine replacements, they would probably have been sued out of existence by the Americans by now. That is of course assuming from this distance that Disco 1's and Defenders with Teflon balls were actually sold over there. The litigious Yanks wouldn't stand for CARP like that from OEM manufacturers, as I believe Rover had previously discovered to their cost, re side mounted petrol tanks on v8 90's IIRC. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Noisy Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 After all this, even if no real progress can be made legally or officially, at least we can start to spread the knowledge that modern swivel balls can be of low quality. I am championing the information on Landyzone and trying to let people know, hopefully the word will spread over the next few years and not too many people need learn the hard way. Here's some pics I sourced of the second vehicle of the two that failed on the recent Morocco trip: Again, this vehicle had brand new balls fitted weeks before the expedition! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Noisy Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 Let's be honest, this is a ****ing disaster, these parts will prove to be lethal before long! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertspark Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 Let's be honest, this is a ****ing disaster, these parts will prove to be lethal before long! No doubt about it! In the interest of spreading the word, and using this thread usefully. Can I propose that: a) if anyone has or hears of anyone else with a shattered swivel ball, that they keep the pieces and maybe we'll get a metallurgical analysis carried out [i wouldn't know where to start or where to go, but lets get some pieces first, getting an old OEM (LR) one shouldn't be difficult]. (I'd apply this to any other critical components too). b) has anyone else had any failures or non-fitting parts from any of the box shifting companies (or landrover), can they please list their gripe here (I'm sure there are other threads too, but how about trying to get a concise list together??) Suggestion, list the part, the part number, and your gripe (didn't fit, leaked like a sieve, broke or packed up after roughly how many miles / time, and who's box it was in). Lets try to make it factual and useful than a slagging off exercise, so that people can make an informed choice? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill van snorkle Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 I'm not likely to ever buy a new swivel ball, but I'm prepared to contribute 10 quid towards metallurgic analysis if other members here are interested in chipping in also. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertspark Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 I'm not likely to ever buy a new swivel ball, but I'm prepared to contribute 10 quid towards metallurgic analysis if other members here are interested in chipping in also. I think the money or contribution side is secondary, lets get a bit of failed metal first and we can then find out what it costs to get it done as a comparative test. Getting one off the shelf now is of little benefit as it could be that they were a bad batch, and the problem is now sorted. I guess Mr Ashcroft (or someone similar) may be considering (or considered) offering an improved version maybe?? But even that may be difficult as there are what 3 or 4 variants across the beam axle range ( Railko bush top, bearing + pin bottom, bearing + pin top & bottom, and I think 6 and 7 bolt hole versions....) so offering something as a small production item that will be sat on the shelf for a while before moving and lets be fair it will be a premium product at a fair price for what it is (i.e. it will never be sold as a cost competitive item to a box shifters one)...... if there really is a market for them other than maybe 10 to 20 sets a year (and if they are that well made, you won't be coming back for another set either). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nigelw Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 Is the answer to a few where reliability is a concern to have a set machined out of a billet and then chromed/coated to prevent corrosion? Costs might be a bit steep but then again, fit and forget. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill van snorkle Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 Is the answer to a few where reliability is a concern to have a set machined out of a billet and then chromed/coated to prevent corrosion? Costs might be a bit steep but then again, fit and forget. If as I suspect, the original equipment swivel balls were forged steel, not cast steel, then Billets may not necessarily be stronger because machining interrupts the grain structure. I think the title of this thread should be changed to attract the people that know about this stuff such as Simon X or the Ashcrofts etc. The fact that they haven't contributed to this discussion suggests that they haven't viewed the thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Noisy Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 Indeed. Would very much like to get some professional opinion. I once called Ashcroft and was told they had never heard of swivel balls breaking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill van snorkle Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 Indeed. Would very much like to get some professional opinion. I once called Ashcroft and was told they had never heard of swivel balls breaking. How about Tetsuosin the OP asking Moderators if you can retitle the thread 'Deadly Swivel Balls' or similar ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robertspark Posted January 25, 2014 Share Posted January 25, 2014 How about asking Moderators if you can retitle the thread 'Deadly Swivel Balls' or similar ? I was kind of hoping that one of the box company PR persons would arrive here for a comment.... with threads and comments like that they will just run a mile and not want a constructive discussion. I suspect..... that their staff are probably all told to not get involved in the threads etc. I just don't understand how you can be involved in selling LR parts and not have an interest in Landrovers??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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