Replacement parts and continuing problems

[bill van snorkle]

I was kind of hoping that one of the box company PR persons would arrive here for a comment.... with threads and comments like that they will just run a mile and not want a constructive discussion.

I suspect..... that their staff are probably all told to not get involved in the threads etc. I just don't understand how you can be involved in selling LR parts and not have an interest in Landrovers???

Because the 'box company's haven't commented, that is all the more reason why a thread with an attention grabbing title should be started to raise awareness about this Carp before someone gets killed!

I will be endeavouring to have this swivel ball subject raised on the widely read Australian AULRO forum.

[Tetsu0san]

How about Tetsuosin the OP asking Moderators if you can retitle the thread 'Deadly Swivel Balls' or similar ?

This thread has ended up being aimed at a specific part, but that is not a criticism! I am pleased that it has sparked such a debate. I did however only want to raise the issue that when people fix (or as it seems, upgrade) their cars that when something fails I am just thinking that it is the fault of the pattern part, not the 'fixer'. But even with this thread being more about swivels than general parts I think that it is still justifying my opening comments.

By all means change the title of this thread if you feel that it is more relevant.

[disco-mark]

I had a swivel break on me a couple of years back, was only 3 weeks old, when I spoke to the supplier he said he'd never heard of one breaking in such a fashion, the ball itself didn't shatter but snapped off at the base of the ball. I was told to send it back for inspection and that was the last I heard of it.

[Mr Noisy]

The box shifters are mainly concerned with profit.

They are large companies who need to save face to sell more products to lower their prices to sell more products to increase their buying power to lower their prices to make more profit. Basically.

They are not selling on the basis of good quality parts.

Britpart are prime example, everyone says they are terrible quality parts but they sell more stuff than any other firm, and when it comes to long extinct exterior trim parts for a 200 Discovery, britpart are the only people to speak to because they have someone in china knocking them out in a just about similar to original fashion. Nobody else does though.

So to he big companies stay out of the debates because frankly entering into discussion is not going to end well.

We bought cheap parts off them. They were ****, but were supposed to be ok. As it happens they were ****. So who is right or wrong? As such, steer clear of the debate!

I think the thread should be pushed to let more 'important' people see the issue and hopefully comment, I also feel that regards OP's feeling towards the direction the thread has gone, here's another example:

My friend bought a 2003 L322 range rover around a year ago.

The water pump was weeping, BMW unit. I sourced a Circoli unit for it, they are around £60. Genuine LR/BMW would have been around £300.

Anyway, about 53 weeks later this water pump fails, completely, catastrophic bearing failure, all water lost, fan belt shredded, AA truck home job.

I have fitted MANY Circoli pumps before to various cars and they are supposed to be good quality, maybe he was unlucky, maybe he should have paid £300.

However, the part we bought was cheap, some cheap parts last ages, some don't, but when your water pump goes it spoils your day.

If your swivel balls goes, it could spoil your life.

And I think this is why the "substandard swivel ball" problem is such a massive one, a catastrophic failure in this part is a big ****ing problem.

And it's the sort of part which wears out and/or becomes unserviceable through reguLr wear and tear therefore is replaced as a matter of course through all walks of life.

It is also the thinnest part of the axle and thus the sacrificial component, and simply needs to be up to standard.

The profit seeking box shifted selling us products that solely resemble the original product are all well and good selling cheap water pumps with limited life expectancy IMO, but if they can't make swivel balls at an acceptable quality and price to compete with original quality LR, then I feel they should do us all a favour and not sell them at all.

[uninformed]

@ Mr Noisy, re your post #91, I take it the new swivel balls on that Disco were NOT genuine?

Also I think it is important to state the difference between Genuine and OEM. I hav found that for a product to be branded OEM, only means that that company making said product has to make a product (any) for the auto industry. That is to say, company X may make part A for companies like LR but get to sell part B as OEM even though they do not make part B for any auto manufactures.

Then of coarse there are the parts that are not even sold as OEM...they tend to be the carp.

I have a new pair of these sitting on my work bench : http://www.shop4autoparts.net/Defender/Axle/Drive-Shafts,Hubs-&-Swivels/frc7065-swivel-housing-dstep-oem.html

All I can say is the company that machines them for castor rotation says they are F hard... I hope they are not these carp dangerous items. Ill have to dig a little deeper before I run them as mine is a daily driver towing up to 2 tonne...

[Mr Noisy]

Hello

No, I have never fitted a swivel ball that was supplied in a genuine land rover parts bag.

However, seeing as there are not various qualities of swivel available, we have to assume the ones supplied are up to the job.

For instance oil seals are available in usually 3 qualities: budget, premium and genuine

Budget are budget. When they leak, you blame yourself for buying them.

Premium are the same as genuine, but in a Corteco box not a land rover bag, so they are half the price.

Regard a swivel ball, there is only one quality, so maybe we are talking bad batch or bad manufacturer.

I'd be surprised but relieved to hear there was more than one manufacturer.

I have at least 5 swivel balls in store at the moment and I know for a fact they have different casting marks/machining inside of them

You would assume a manufacturer would have the same casting each time? Can't see them all being sand cast these days?!

Shop4Autoparts seemed to have jumped on the LR bandwagon recently, I wonder who they are, they seem to sell decent stuff very reasonable, I bought a few bits, LT230 gasket set and they made a point of selling a Viton seals option, also pad retainer set for approx £1.50, tremendous, and proper split pins with flattened end, you don't get that from Britpart.

[Daan]

Premium are the same as genuine, but in a Corteco box not a land rover bag, so they are half the price.

That statement is not correct, as I have found many times. An OEM manufacturer could well be making genuine parts, but their OEM part is not the same. This is because the genuine part has to pass rigorous testing, but the OEM part doesn't.

I have been on a tour through the monroe factory once; they made shock absorbers for landrover. They showed the line for genuine parts, they were coloured black.

Then they showed the oem line, the shocks were coloured yellow and looked totaly different. I dropped the question as to why they were different. The answer was that the genuine parts have to pas difficult tests, the oem doesn't.

The same for Bosal making exhausts for mercedes, but also the aftermarket exhaust for a quarter of the price.

I recently replaced my Quintin Hazel waterpump for the genuine part, and the sealing looked completely different.

Genuine is by far the best quality I am afraid.

You would assume a manufacturer would have the same casting each time? Can't see them all being sand cast these days?!

I think the genuine part is a forging, where as the cheapo one is cast. I stress the word 'think', but it would be good to get to the bottom of this.

Daan

[dailysleaze]

Because the 'box company's haven't commented, that is all the more reason why a thread with an attention grabbing title should be started to raise awareness about this Carp before someone gets killed!

I will be endeavouring to have this swivel ball subject raised on the widely read Australian AULRO forum.

I came across this thread where a new poster "bluebear" was defending Britpart, but was outed as an employee.

This page onwards: http://www.fullfatrr.com/forum/topic13598-15.html

They hardly have a very good social media strategy! He was making the excuse that because they are a wholesaler, it's not their job to deal with the end user.

[Nigelw]

I have in the past defended Britpart, and as far as certain parts go I will continue, but on safety critical items I think that owners need to take responsibility too, yes they have an obligation to provide a part that is as described and serviceable, but any part that is less than a third of the price of a genuine part simply cannot be an identical part or even close, I think Daan nailed it with the seal comment, yes Corteco are good but still not as good as genuine.

The guy from BP was a bit of a numpty, but I see both sides, we all want top quality but at the cheapest price but nobody wants to pay genuine prices for genuine parts, where would they start even if they were to try to begin dialogue here? Would everyone just fob it off as excuses?

Don't fit much of their stuff on my own Disco and have spent a lot of money with Land Rover Hasselt buying genuine parts, why? Because I want my truck to do it's job day in day out, it will be my daily driver soon and it will be my recreational vehicle too, I will continue to buy genuine parts too as breakdowns must be avoided at all costs, quality costs I need quality and understand the equation, seems a shame that so many others believe the hype of aftermarket part suppliers saying they give the "same" quality as genuine but at a fraction of the price, bit like believing in the tooth fairy after waking up as mum puts the pound under your pillow really.

Ultimately the buck stops with you as an owner as to the quality of your parts.

[bill van snorkle]

I have nothing more to add on this subject, But, a pound Nigel ? !! You certainly had a spoilt childhood ! I got thruppence, and even then I had to share the sweets with my Siblings.

[Tanuki]

IMHO there's OEM and there's 'OEM' and there's "OEM" and there's down-a-backstreet-in-Shenzen.

When it comes to safety-critical bits like brake-calipers/pads, track-rod-ends, clutches/flywheels, balls, wheel-bearings, steering-boxes - I'll either buy and fit parts from a genuine LR dealer or a reputable UK supplier with decent traceability who is supplying parts from an accredited OEM like GKN, Bosch, Delphi or - if it's bearing/seal-type stuff - SKF, FAG or NSK/NTN.

Cam-belts - it's either a Land-Rover-dealer supplied kit or Gates. Similarly, for shock-absorbers I'll only fit Konis or Bilsteins.

Batteries - gotta be Yuasa, Bosch or Varta.

Thing is, apart from the safety-issues, I price my *TIME*.

It seems crazy to me to spend an afternoon stripping-out and replacing something like a brake-caliper but using 'questionable' parts. You may save £50 on the parts by using blue-box no-name stuff but if it then fails a couple of years down the line and you find yourself [or your customer] stranded in Perth some wet winter-sunday-night at stupidly-late-O'clock with a dead car when you really need to be in Devon for a business-meeting at 08:30 Monday, cheap rapidly gets expensive.

I'd much rather do a job once and know it's a good'un [though expensive] than have it come back to bite me me in a couple of years. As an example, I replace batteries every 3 years even though the one that's currently in use is seemingly working fine. £120 spent on a new battery's cheap compared with the cost of a monday-morning winter non-start that means I don't make a contract-renewal meeting.

[Mr Noisy]

Yep, maybe it is is that needs to change the way the market works by not putting price before quality.

Having said that, this is true for every single marketplace so that's never going to happen.

I've learnt my lesson anyway.

The overriding point is however, should we or did I expect those Britpart supplied swivel balls to shatter catastrophically or did I expect them to last until they needed replacing through corrosion like the original items?

The problem I'm having is that neither did I expect them to shatter nor was there any indication or suggestion that the cheaper part was of lower quality.

Which left me somewhat in the **** when the worst happened!

[Jamie_grieve]

How hard would it be to do a DIY Charpy test with a 14lb hammer head swinging on a bit of flat bar?

The results of this simple test may well be educational and show the merit of pursuing the whole thing a bit further.

[reb78]

We have at least one member on here that I recall comes from the aftermarket industry.

http://forums.lr4x4.com/index.php?showuser=23315

http://forums.lr4x4.com/index.php?showtopic=55523#entry492451

He started with apparent good meaning, but he hasn't been active for a few years unfortunately. His comments might be useful here though....

[uninformed]

Hello

No, I have never fitted a swivel ball that was supplied in a genuine land rover parts bag.

However, seeing as there are not various qualities of swivel available, we have to assume the ones supplied are up to the job.

For instance oil seals are available in usually 3 qualities: budget, premium and genuine

Budget are budget. When they leak, you blame yourself for buying them.

Premium are the same as genuine, but in a Corteco box not a land rover bag, so they are half the price.

Regard a swivel ball, there is only one quality, so maybe we are talking bad batch or bad manufacturer.

I'd be surprised but relieved to hear there was more than one manufacturer.

I have at least 5 swivel balls in store at the moment and I know for a fact they have different casting marks/machining inside of them

You would assume a manufacturer would have the same casting each time? Can't see them all being sand cast these days?!

Shop4Autoparts seemed to have jumped on the LR bandwagon recently, I wonder who they are, they seem to sell decent stuff very reasonable, I bought a few bits, LT230 gasket set and they made a point of selling a Viton seals option, also pad retainer set for approx £1.50, tremendous, and proper split pins with flattened end, you don't get that from Britpart.

I Would have to disagree on the one manufacture for the swivel balls idea. If there are aftermarket companies making cheap CV joints, then a swivel ball is a no brainer (i.e. not as complex to make) There is a market there for them and many other parts that would be made by different companies.

[uninformed]

That statement is not correct, as I have found many times. An OEM manufacturer could well be making genuine parts, but their OEM part is not the same. This is because the genuine part has to pass rigorous testing, but the OEM part doesn't.

I have been on a tour through the monroe factory once; they made shock absorbers for landrover. They showed the line for genuine parts, they were coloured black.

Then they showed the oem line, the shocks were coloured yellow and looked totaly different. I dropped the question as to why they were different. The answer was that the genuine parts have to pas difficult tests, the oem doesn't.

The same for Bosal making exhausts for mercedes, but also the aftermarket exhaust for a quarter of the price.

I recently replaced my Quintin Hazel waterpump for the genuine part, and the sealing looked completely different.

Genuine is by far the best quality I am afraid.

I think the genuine part is a forging, where as the cheapo one is cast. I stress the word 'think', but it would be good to get to the bottom of this.

Daan

I agree, but will add with the likes of Timken and Corteco, that buying them in their own branded boxes seems every bit as good as buying them in genuine LR boxes.

As with a lot of parts though, OEM is NOT genuine. This is where people either get it wrong or are confused. OEM simply stands for "Original Equipment Manufacture" but that does not automatcily mean they are the OEM of the part in your hand for the vehicle you are fixing.

Sometimes it does, but many times it doesnt.

[Blanco]

Reading through this again this morning, I just wonder why, when in other industries we have perfectly good safety and quality standards, (thinking BS kitemark, Euro Norms, ISO9001 etc.) none of them seem to apply here. Surely the industry is big enough.... how does it fall through the net of regulation?? I'd buy parts that had won a kitemark, or NF or TUV come to that.

[Mr Noisy]

Is it Allmakes that supply certain components TUV which are same part as a nonTUV version they sell but much more expensive, presumed leg due to testing or improved manufacture.

Sure it's Allmakes, it's for the German market I think, adjustable panhard rod comes to mind.

[Jamie_grieve]

Reading through this again this morning, I just wonder why, when in other industries we have perfectly good safety and quality standards, (thinking BS kitemark, Euro Norms, ISO9001 etc.) none of them seem to apply here. Surely the industry is big enough.... how does it fall through the net of regulation?? I'd buy parts that had won a kitemark, or NF or TUV come to that.

My understanding is as below. That said, the price of genuine parts are ridiculous when viewed from the standpoint that the vehicle manufacturer gets a better price from the supplier for genuine than we do for blue box equivalent. The difference between the tooling and materials in the manufacturing costs for a bad part compared to a genuine one would be dwarfed by the distribution costs. this partly but not fully explains why a new vehicle might cost £25k but if you bought the genuine component parts to build one it would probably be closer to £500k. Genuine parts are way overpriced to the punter in the street.

legal getout clause where 'part number used for reference purposes only'? I understand it means they can sell any old carp they like because even if it looks like a swivel ball and smells like a swivel ball and was found using an OEM part number it is in fact a large paper weight that only resembles in all but function a swivel ball.

[Ex Member]

Not in this case though. The later model genuine swivels are around double the "OEM" swivels. Really, somebody would need to talk to the sellers and find out where they are made and such as well as test. One can't imagine there are a ton of places making these things.... There is just a ton of conjecture in this thread with no facts.

http://www.lrseries.com/shop/product/listing/6597/2942/FRC7065-SWIVEL-HOUSING-ASSY.html

[bill van snorkle]

Not in this case though. The later model genuine swivels are around double the "OEM" swivels. Really, somebody would need to talk to the sellers and find out where they are made and such as well as test. One can't imagine there are a ton of places making these things.... There is just a ton of conjecture in this thread with no facts.

http://www.lrseries.com/shop/product/listing/6597/2942/FRC7065-SWIVEL-HOUSING-ASSY.html

The facts are that they have shattered with very little use, when similar failure of genuine balls are virtually unheard of. I believe you have engineering back ground. Can you not tell by Mr Noiseys photos that these are poor quality castings, possibly from grey iron ? No one else on this forum with any engineering qualification seems to be willing to offer an opinion.

Take a sample over to Taiwan, India or China and they could make you one in a day while you wait ! Castings are easy, and if the market was significant any number of firms in those countries could knock them out.

[Mr Noisy]

There is indeed. More waffle than Belgium

[uninformed]

I could possibly give LRA a call and see if they note any difference when machining Genuine vs AM?

[bill van snorkle]

I could possibly give LRA a call and see if they note any difference when machining Genuine vs AM?

You could ask Mal Story, aka Maxidrive. to take a look at the photos Serg. It's bleedin obvious they are cast.

[Ex Member]

Sure those ones were bad. But where did they come from? Is it normal. I google broken swivels and don't come up with many stories. Thousands of these are sold every year. The problem is figuring out where different ones come from and which might be good or bad. It requires a lot of digging and testing.