damoace Posted November 1, 2006 Share Posted November 1, 2006 Hello all another newbee speaking up. After a few years of fraternising with V8's in Bobtailed Rangie's, I'm planning my first plunge into building with diesel power on the Discovery side of life. I'm still at the planning stage with this and I'm learning that I dont know as much as I thought I did! My first question is probably a simple one: Just how many different diesel engine models were fitted to early Disco's? So far i've seen 2.5TD, 200Tdi (my preferred target motor at the moment) and the 300Tdi (although the 300 is not really an option to start with as the cars with it fitted are too new for my budget, for the same reason (only more so) I'm not worried about the TD5 as it's way too new for my wallet. My understanding is that the 200 is more expensive but easier to play with and get more out of than the 300 but what is a 2.5TD? Is it just another name for one of the other lumps? or a different beast altogether? Any info would be appreciated. The plan involves a 3door (hopefully a Marshall Van type) body and a quite a bit of "lifting"... and cutting and drinking and hitting things with hammers and welding and (probably) swearing! Many Thanks in advance... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
white90 Posted November 2, 2006 Share Posted November 2, 2006 2.5TD is to be avoided it is underpowered and not up to much Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onions Posted November 2, 2006 Share Posted November 2, 2006 To the best of my (very limited) knowledge the Disco was only ever fitted with 2 different engines the 200tdi and the 300tdi. With both of them being 2.5 turbo diesels it's entirely possible if you're looking at car listings (Auto Trader etc..) that people could describe either of these engines as a 2.5TD. Of course I'm willing to be corrected by a proper expert at any point. I've driven Landys with both lumps in them and I can't find a lot to choose between them from a driving point of view apart from a little more refinement to the 300, but I must admit to loving my 300 to bits - often lots of oily little bits - so I'm biased. Never had the pleasure of working on a 200 engine so, again, I'll leave that opinion to one of the proper experts lurking around here. Happy Land Rovering. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
onions Posted November 2, 2006 Share Posted November 2, 2006 There you go - I was corrected before I even posted! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Posted November 2, 2006 Share Posted November 2, 2006 The Disco was never fitted with the 2.5TD (sometimes called a 19J engine) as fitted to defenders. As onions has suggested, the adverts are probably done by people who know they have a 2.5l turbo disel engune, but in a disco that shiuld be a 200, or later 300 TDI. hope that helps Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
damoace Posted November 2, 2006 Author Share Posted November 2, 2006 understood all. You are indeed correct. I'm trolling the nationals (and the dreaded Fleabay) for prospective cars. I suspect the 200 is the way forward and that leads to the next obvious question: how to differentiate between the TD/200Tdi? I know you can look at V5's and perhaps lookup chassis numbers with LR, are there any dead "giveaways" when talking to vendors on the telephone or looking at the lump itself? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
damoace Posted November 2, 2006 Author Share Posted November 2, 2006 ah ha! "nternet lag" strikes.. Thanks mark. You have answered my question even before i'd finished typeing it up... damn these slow metal fingers.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Posted November 2, 2006 Share Posted November 2, 2006 lol, no problem. D90SV was advertising one very cheap on here recently. Have a look in the classifieds. You don't say where you are, might be worth adding that to your profile... Cheers Mark Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G4FUJ Posted November 2, 2006 Share Posted November 2, 2006 200Tdi not as smooth as the 300, but as an earlier motor is available for less £. Apparently easier to tweak (not tried it with mine!). 200 comes with LT77S gearbox, 300 with the R380. LT77 probably more traditional LR - more clunky! 2.5TD (19J) never fitted to Disco (by Land Rover for public sale). V8s were, so was the rather sluggardly 2.0 Mpi - didn't sell particularly well, doubt there's many about now! You looking for a 200Tdi Disco then? Cheers, Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Posted November 2, 2006 Share Posted November 2, 2006 300Tdi was fitted after a facelift, you get a lot nicer interior with them. apart from that i doubt you'd notice much difference in the engines when driving. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
freeagent Posted November 2, 2006 Share Posted November 2, 2006 its easy to spot the differences as there are loads. 300Tdi had bigger headlights... see piccy of mine below... and usually has lights in the rear bumper, aswell as rear body... the earliest 300Tdi's are 'L' reg, as are the latest 200Tdi's... my dad has a 200Tdi, and i have a 300tdi, so i drive both regularly, sometimes back to back... the 200 is more 'landroverlike' and a little agricultural... when compared to the 300tdi, which i find a much nicer driving experience... the 200 is more economical though.... the gearbox in the 300 is nicer, but the 200 feels faster sometimes..... the dashboard and interior are very different, once you've seen one of each, you'll easily be able to spot the difference. i'd go for a 300 if i were you, prices have tumbled lately, and a sound 300 can be found for £2500... hope this helps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
damoace Posted November 3, 2006 Author Share Posted November 3, 2006 all good intel, thanks guy's. I know it sounds anal, but I like to plan the builds a bit in advance to avoid surprises.. I'm not *quite* ready to start as I need to sell my current roadcar before the funds are in, it's going in the press over the next couple of weeks also SWMBO tells me that i'll be stabbed if I fill the garage up with even more *junk* (her word not mine) before clearing the current *junk* away. However, I do have a basic idea of what it'll end up like (building/running the Bobtail taught me a couple of hard lessons) and a budget to plan it to.. The starting spec has panned out to a 200tdi 3door commercial (or 3dr with the rear seats out but i'd prefer a commercial) with good inner wings, sills and boot. I'll have about £2000 to buy the car. From what i've seen thats not too far off... I've already got a +_ 2inch kit, a 2"body lift, castor corrected swivels and a larger intercooler. The sliders,bumpers, and rollcage are next on the list but I may wait until I actually have the car before going to mad on those. Watch this space, P.S would it be okay if I pestered you all on the pro's and cons of Diff Lockers? I did'nt have them on the Bobtail and after changing more diffs than i've got fingers and toe's, I reckon a locker at each end is nessesary on this one.... I'll start another post after checking the FAQ's.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Posted November 4, 2006 Share Posted November 4, 2006 lockers are needed a lot more if you get a 200 disco. the 300s come with a lot stronger diffs as standard i believe. ive got a detriot rear & tru-trac front as i dont want the wires/connections etc needed for ARBs or similar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tpk241 Posted November 13, 2006 Share Posted November 13, 2006 I've already got a +_ 2inch kit, a 2"body lift, castor corrected swivels and a larger intercooler. The sliders,bumpers, and rollcage are next on the list but I may wait until I actually have the car before going to mad on those. Where did you get the Clocked swivels and bodylift from damoace ? Thanks TPK Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest dew110CSW Posted November 13, 2006 Share Posted November 13, 2006 2.5TD is to be avoided it is underpowered and not up to much I resent that remark . the 19J was never fitted to a Disco, but I would definatly not call it underpowered (NA D anyone?) and if well looked after can be just as reliable as a 200tdi. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BogMonster Posted November 13, 2006 Share Posted November 13, 2006 I resent that remark .the 19J was never fitted to a Disco, but I would definatly not call it underpowered (NA D anyone?) and if well looked after can be just as reliable as a 200tdi. OK..... .....Not as underpowered as a NA diesel. Bit like saying "not as big a bang as Hiroshima" Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
damoace Posted November 13, 2006 Author Share Posted November 13, 2006 Where did you get the Clocked swivels and bodylift from damoace ?Thanks TPK The body lift is a home made job that I knocked up for the RR. I suspect that it'll be no good for the Disco but I was going to get the car and have a look. I've knocked a lump into the budget for a "RoverTym" body lift from the states if my setup cant be fitted. The corrected swivels are a Fleabay jobby from a while ago. No real way to tell who made them. I resent that remark .the 19J was never fitted to a Disco, but I would definatly not call it underpowered (NA D anyone?) and if well looked after can be just as reliable as a 200tdi. All the same, going to stick to the 200 as they seem to be easier to get the power out of (bang for buck wise). One of the things that the RR did very well indeed was to climb very steep things very quickly. I'd like to make sure that the diesel can do the same, and that needs a certain amount of power.... OK..........Not as underpowered as a NA diesel. Bit like saying "not as big a bang as Hiroshima" LMAO! :):):):) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BogMonster Posted November 13, 2006 Share Posted November 13, 2006 All the same, going to stick to the 200 as they seem to be easier to get the power out of (bang for buck wise) The other main difference is that tuning a TD you are probably more likely to get a bang and then have to spend the bucks afterwards, rather than the other way around Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
damoace Posted November 13, 2006 Author Share Posted November 13, 2006 The other main difference is that tuning a TD you are probably more likely to get a bang and then have to spend the bucks afterwards deffo not the preferred method for sure. From what I've learned so far, it seems to be a case of 150(ish) BHP for virtually no $ at all with the 200TDI. First tune will be cheap stuff as most of the budget will be spent on axle hardening (I really have had enough of rebuilding diff's/replacing axles/driving home with the car banging around like zebeddy/listening to the affected axles grenade-ing on the way home/spunking ep90 all over the place) so the axles/diffs/shafts/cage/sliders/suspension will take most of the initial cash. The Power tuning at 1st fix will be more a case of intercooler/snorkle/pump adjustments to start with. Only if I still cant climb the steep stuff (something I love doing) after doing that lot will there be talk of spending large amounts of money on the BHP/NM. 150BHP "should" be enough and I reckon thats doable (at 1bar boost) without blueprinting or silly talk on the dry sump side of life. However, it *is* customary that I blow at least one block up during development! :) if the game plan works out then it'll have to be a thermite attack on an old block in the yard just to satisfy the traditionalist's! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geoffbeaumont Posted November 14, 2006 Share Posted November 14, 2006 What are typical performance gains for each engine, for various levels of spending? Just out of curiousity really - don't think it'd be where I'd start from to build a performance motor! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Posted November 15, 2006 Share Posted November 15, 2006 TD - £5 of fuel & floor it for more power then BANG 200/300 - pump tweaks (free) give about 20% then add a larger intercooler (£200+ new) tweak the pump some more & up the boost (if you fancy it). i think get a total increase of about 30-35% i wouldnt take that as gospel, much of depends how far you feel safe to tweak it. need an EGT gauge to do it safely - i must get one oneday... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
damoace Posted November 15, 2006 Author Share Posted November 15, 2006 Ah HA! I'm glad you brushed on Exhaust gas temp's - cos it's another area that my "rules of thumb" regarding basic power tuning (of low tech petrol 2 stroke and 4 stroke engines) is at odd's with what I'm learning is correct for diesel's. I read a couple "EGT" type threads and it seems that richening the mixture causes the temp to increase. Now, on planet Damo, it's normally a lean mixture (too much air or not enough fuel/oil) that causes the exhaust/piston/valve temps (and my blood pressure/vocabulary) to hit the rafters. How come that for the same boost (ie air volume prior to compression) an increase in fuel causes such a massive increase in core temp? My understanding (admittedly gained from pushing petrol engines) is that more fuel for the same amount of air equals a drop in EGT (and core temp) as the extra fuel damps the reaction at detonation, gives *Less* power (and leaves more unburnt/incompletely burnt fuel) than a mixture which borders on the "perfect ratio" and leads to a total burn of all fuel and air added (which gives a hike in EGT and core surface temp) and gives more power. Continuing to lean it out will eventually be very bad indeed for your motor/bank balance/nerves as it will result in a "crikey it's going well this morning..bang bang duck" moment. And that goes double for 2strokes. I know engine guys who ride 2 stroke bikes with two fingers on the clutch at all times and measure the endurance of their engines with a stopwatch instead of the mileometer! I suspect that all the above is codswallop when it comes to diesels but could anyone explain why? The more I research for "Damo'sDisco" (named by the wife - Bless) the more I learn that what I thought was right is, er, not quite correct... ahem... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BogMonster Posted November 15, 2006 Share Posted November 15, 2006 I read a couple "EGT" type threads and it seems that richening the mixture causes the temp to increase. Now, on planet Damo, it's normally a lean mixture (too much air or not enough fuel/oil) that causes the exhaust/piston/valve temps (and my blood pressure/vocabulary) to hit the rafters. How come that for the same boost (ie air volume prior to compression) an increase in fuel causes such a massive increase in core temp? My understanding (admittedly gained from pushing petrol engines) is that more fuel for the same amount of air equals a drop in EGT (and core temp) Diesels work the other way around, richer = hotter, I have an EGT gauge in my 90 and trust me, when you wind the fuelling up you also wind the numbers up Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Andy Posted November 15, 2006 Share Posted November 15, 2006 have a few reads of the thread in the tech archive about tweaking Tdis, it explains it rather well. basicly a petrol engine controls the power by limiting the air - throttle butterfly & so on. on a diesel there is no restriction on the air & the power is limited by the fuel. more fuel = more power, more power = heat = higher EGT. thats about the limit of my knowledge & im sure even that can be wrong at times. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tpk241 Posted November 16, 2006 Share Posted November 16, 2006 Had my fuel pump tweaked and you wouldn't want to stand behing my exhaust for long i can assure you ... need to have another play cos it smokes like a beast too Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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