Souster Posted August 24, 2015 Share Posted August 24, 2015 Hi all Had a break down yesterday in my 300tdi returning from wales about 40 mile into our 120 mile journey. I had noticed the engine was very noisy and down on power, and tried to find somewhere safe to pull over and investigate in the engine bay. Unfortunatley, before i managed to pull over. The engine cut out at 40MPH, and would just about restart, to pull into a safe place in low range 1st gear. The engine sounded like it was running on 2 or 3 cyclinders, and like the exhaust had fell off. Incredibly rough!Anyway, i looked in the engine bay and couldnt find anything wrong, no oil and water mixing and no fluid loss. So phoned for recovery.The recovery guy turned up and popped off the intercooler top hose and started the engine, to find the inlet manifold was blowing out, and extremely noisy. With lots of grey/blue smoke out of the exhaust. The engine would barely run, even worse once it had cooled. He suspected valve damage!This evening, i removed the rocker cover, to find a snapped rocker arm and a bent push rod under that arm. And havent had chance to investigate any further as im not sure of where to look. Can anyone help please? Where should i start looking? What could caused the pushrods to bend and snap a rocker arm?any advise would be greatly apprecited, Thanks alot Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vulcan bomber Posted August 24, 2015 Share Posted August 24, 2015 Timing belts slipped, stretched or shredded.... Replace the belt and pushrods (got loads of you want some?) start it up and see what happens.. The TDi's 99 times out of 100 survive a timing belt breakage just fine. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ex Member Posted August 24, 2015 Share Posted August 24, 2015 Yah, timing belt jumped a tooth or two. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanuki Posted August 24, 2015 Share Posted August 24, 2015 I'd agree that Job One is to pull the timing-belt cover and see what the mess inside is. If you're lucky it's just shredded the belt and jumped a tooth-or-two - which can be fixed by fitting a new belt/entire set of tensioners and replacing any bent pushrods/snapped rockers. If the belt jumped more teeth and you carried on driving then you may have tragic damage like bent valves now binding in the valve-guides, distorted/shattered rocker-shaft and/or noticeable piston-face-smashing-into-valves damage. Be prepared to measure all the parts and replace lots of bits that might look OK but are not any more geometrically correct. You can't tell if a hit-by-a-piston valve still has a straight stem without a dial-gauge and surface-plate. If in doubt valves are easy to replace - but you still need to check that the height of the valve-guides in the head are correct. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Souster Posted August 24, 2015 Author Share Posted August 24, 2015 Thanks to you all. I had the timing kit replaced by a local land rover specialist. But then the crank seal failed due to them fitting a poor brand. They replaced the tensioner and fitted a modified crank gear. I then replaced the crank seal along with a brand new dayco belt. So is there any reason the belt could have failed? Could it have been fitted incorrectly? Aligned wrongly? So where do I start... Inspect and replace timing kit Replace all push rods and broken rocker arm? Re do valve clearances and see how it runs? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ejparrott Posted August 24, 2015 Share Posted August 24, 2015 Open up the front cover first, see what you've got, then plan from there Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanuki Posted August 24, 2015 Share Posted August 24, 2015 Sounds like you've had a lot of entirely unnecessary hassle. IMHO if the belt/tensioner/pulley kit fitted by your supposed "Land-Rover Specialist" has failed within 48,000 miles/4 years [what I consider the standard service life for these parts] you really should be visiting them accompanied, for 'persuasion' purposes by a few of your local Rugby-club forwards, a sackfull of rats and a brace of explosively-incontinent Yellow Labradors. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Souster Posted August 24, 2015 Author Share Posted August 24, 2015 Thanks all. You were right, failed timing belt. It looks like it has been rubbing somewhere very badly, the whole cover was full of rubber swarf from the belt with only half the belt remaining. What could have caused such drastic rubbing like this? It's only done about 1000 miles since I refitted it. http://i905.photobucket.com/albums/ac253/souster4/Mobile%20Uploads/20150824_224601.jpg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dailysleaze Posted August 24, 2015 Share Posted August 24, 2015 Could be overtightening (15nm instead of 11) Also, not pushing the crank sprocket in far enough (it takes some effort to get the o-ring to seat) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Souster Posted August 25, 2015 Author Share Posted August 25, 2015 Could be overtightening (15nm instead of 11) Also, not pushing the crank sprocket in far enough (it takes some effort to get the o-ring to seat) Thanks for the reply. I followed the Rave manual for tensioning the belt, IIRC it states 15nm, is this wrong now? I did use two torque wrenches to tension the belt. Is there a way you would advise pushing the crank gear fully home? I have got a spare crank gear if that would help, just don't want to push it too far and cause damage. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Souster Posted August 25, 2015 Author Share Posted August 25, 2015 Guys can anyone confirm these parts are suitable for my 300tdi with the modified crank gear? Mine is a 1995 300tdi defender 90. The reason I ask I'm getting confused with earlier and later type timing kits. 1x ERR1092 Dayco Timing Belt 1x LHP100860 Tensioner 1x LHV100150 Idler 1x ERR7293 Front Cover gasket Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dailysleaze Posted August 25, 2015 Share Posted August 25, 2015 The 15nm catches people out because of the service bulletin that is easily missed: 300Tdi Timing Belt TSB.pdf STC4096L is a good kit to get. Bearmach have good parts and forged crank pulley https://www.lrdirect.com/STC4096L-Modified-Timing-Belt-Pulley-Kit-3/ The specific parts you listed seem correct; they match here: http://www.island-4x4.co.uk/timing-belt-modified-britpart-stc4096l-p-8163.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Souster Posted August 25, 2015 Author Share Posted August 25, 2015 The 15nm catches people out because of the service bulletin that is easily missed: 300Tdi Timing Belt TSB.pdf STC4096L is a good kit to get. Bearmach have good parts and forged crank pulley https://www.lrdirect.com/STC4096L-Modified-Timing-Belt-Pulley-Kit-3/ The specific parts you listed seem correct; they match here: http://www.island-4x4.co.uk/timing-belt-modified-britpart-stc4096l-p-8163.html Thankyou mate thats very helpfull. Ive got a few questions for you all that im unsure on.... 1. Would you advise replacing the tensioner and idler despite them being fairly new? (Already had the modified crank gear etc fitted) 2. When refitting the belt, How can i check its aligned properly? 3. Can i still follow the rave manual, and just tension to a different figure to what the manual states? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vulcan bomber Posted August 25, 2015 Share Posted August 25, 2015 1 yes incase there is a fault that's caused your issue. I've never used a torque wrench to tension a timing belt and I've fitted at least 10 to both versions of TDi. 2 turn the engine over by hand a few times and watch they way the belt tracks. 3 yes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steve b Posted August 26, 2015 Share Posted August 26, 2015 Do you have any end float in the injector pump shaft ? This is a common cause of shredded belts. The belts are not that sensitive to overtensioning, is there evidence of the belt touching the outer cover? cheers Steveb Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Les Henson Posted August 26, 2015 Share Posted August 26, 2015 I suggest you inspect everything that the belt runs on before deciding what you need to replace other than the belt itself. 300TDi cam belt change is here, and not really all that difficult to do, apart from undoing/tightening the crank bolt. http://forums.lr4x4.com/index.php?showtopic=6943. Dayco belts are OE spec, so excellent quality. Valve damage is highly unlikely ( I have never come across it), as they are vertical to the piston crown and impact shock is transmitted to the rocker/pushrod. Before removing the belt, turn the engine to the timing position contained in the link above. Timing out between crank and cam will cause piston/valve contact, but don't worry if the injector pump sprocket is out, as this will just cause poor running. It doesn't matter is the crank sprocket hasn't been pushed on fully, as when you tighten the crank bolt it will push it all the way on. There are a few things on this engine that could cause belt drift. Crank bolt coming undone. Tensioner/idler wheel assembly failing/ pivot point and bolt coming undone or not tensioned correctly. Camshaft sprocket coming loose (highly unlikely as you never touch it when replacing the belt). Injector pump shaft problem, or the 3 bolts that have to be loosened to set it have not been tightened and the sprocket has drifted outwards as the bolts work undone. Les Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Souster Posted August 26, 2015 Author Share Posted August 26, 2015 Thankyou everyone for your help. I've got all fingers crossed that the valves are okay. One thing that is concerning me is that last time I had the belt off, I removed the FIP gear, to try and advance the timing slightly. After instruction from a friend. However I ran out of adjustment, and just refitted the gear. Could I have done anything wrong in refitting it? Can it only be fitted one way with the retaining plate? I now know thanks to you guys that the belt tension is 11nm instead of 15nm. I've got a new timing kit coming tomorrow, apparently britpart with 'G' part numbers. Despite there being no markings on the tensioner and idler it's apparently OEM. So I hope it's okay. I've also ordered 8 new push rods, and checked cam followers which are fine. Is there anything else I should check? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Les Henson Posted August 26, 2015 Share Posted August 26, 2015 As long as you used a timing setting pin through the injector pump sprocket and into the hub, then there's no problem with removing the sprocket - there's a square key that only allows it to be fitted in the one position. One thing you should never do is undo the centre nut. To adjust the timing of the pump you only need to slacken the three small bolts, fit the belt, tension it, check the timing marks on the cam and crank, and that the setting pin is located correctly in the injector pump and then tighten the three bolts. Remove the pin, rotate the engine twice clockwise back to the timing position and check marks align and that the pin will go back in. Re check belt tension and if all is ok, then put it all back together. Your friend telling you to remove the sprocket is wrong. You slacken the 3 bolts, put a spanner on the centre nut, and rotate the pump shaft a small amount in order to fit the pin. Once the belt is tensioned correctly, then the last thing you do is tighten the 3 bolts. Les Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ejparrott Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 Never undo the centre bolt!!!!! I had an argument with an eBay seller a while back...he was selling a 200TDi pump, which was quite clearly missing the hub and pulley off the end.... He was adamant there was nothing wrong with pulling the hub off, he'd been working on Land Rovers for many years you see...he suggested I should take my Land Rovers to someone who knew what they were doing.... Should have just bought it, it was only £25, and I have got dial gauges and plungers clocks so I could probably have put it right, but even so, I bet a re-conditioner probably wouldn't charge much to do it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Souster Posted August 27, 2015 Author Share Posted August 27, 2015 Thanks for replys. I didn't adjust/remove the centre nut on FIP, so that's not the issue. Regarding the belt tension. I didn't use a dial type torque wrench to tension the belt, I just used a normal click type wrench. (Granted it was tensioned to 15 and not 11nm). And also did the same on my dad's. Would you advise me to inspect my dad's timing belt gear, and re adjust the tension to 11nm. Is a dial type torque wrench absolutely necessary? Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ex Member Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 As stated above the tension is not the cause of the problem and is not critical. Something else is not correct. Check that all teh pulleys are secure and can not move in or out. Put a straightedge on them and make sure they are all in line. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Souster Posted August 27, 2015 Author Share Posted August 27, 2015 As stated above the tension is not the cause of the problem and is not critical. Something else is not correct. Check that all teh pulleys are secure and can not move in or out. Put a straightedge on them and make sure they are all in line. Thanks for the reply (s). So if tension is not the problem. I have no idea what is the cause for the belt moving across and rubbing on the engine side, casing. Its rubbed that badly that when i removed the front cover only half the belt was remaining, and masses of rubber swarf. Ive had the timing gear off 3 times: 1. Land rover specialist fitted modified timing kit. ALL Ok. 2. I Had to replace the Crank seal which said land rover specialist fitted poor quality seal and it failed. Fitted new belt in process. ALL OK. 3. I removed front cover and timing belt attempting to advance the FIP gear due to running out of adjustment in the inspection hatch (factory setting with 9.5mm pin was as far advanced as it would allow). Basically trying to get the the bottom of diesel knock that i had. And unfortunatley, this time caused the FAILURE. This evening i removed the FIP gear again to see if i had fitted it wrong etc, but realised it could only be fitted in one way. Also i checked the modifed crank gear with no issues, and all the gears/pulleys are in line. Anyone got any further ideas to stop this happening again? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vulcan bomber Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 Where abouts are you? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Souster Posted August 27, 2015 Author Share Posted August 27, 2015 Where abouts are you? Wolverhampton based mate Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vulcan bomber Posted August 27, 2015 Share Posted August 27, 2015 Bit of a Trek for me then... Maybe someone else would be able to coma and have a look see? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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