How good or rubbish are non LR's off road?

[honitonhobbit]

I've been helping with the development of a new suspension option for Isuzu - for the D-max. Sold through IM, throughout Europe. I would stake my professional reputation on it being the best of the 4x4 pickups about (although I preferred the 3.0litre Turbo to the 2.5TT). It's excellent off road. The new suspension system make sit as good as a 110 in 95% of the situations you would take a 110 through in work off road - with only the rear overhang causing issues.

I rate the Ranger/B2500 highly - nut not so much the new Ranger; although the 5 cylinder 3.2 is a cracking engine and uses less juice than the 2.2.

The Auto version of the Hi-Lux Invincible is pretty good - not a patch on the old 2.8 NAD RoW Hi-lux - but good all the same

The Mitsi L200 is, as it always has been, fair to middling

I like the Navarra D20 to D40 a lot - but they are massively tyre dependant - to be fair off road, they will be pants on road and visa versa. Lovely engines (when they don't go bang) Nicest is the 53 plate Basic model

If you want to find out just how good indie suspension can be - look at the later generation Mitsi Shogun. The 3.2 lump is sweet. They bang out almost 450ft/lb and weight 500kgs less than the over lardy D3/D4. Mitsi design clever stuff for off road and despite looking pig ugly it's a cracking bus

[Cynic-al]

Well if your just talking an offroad toy I preferred my very modded sj to my very modded land rover. The smaller size meant that you knew what every wheel was doing and it just put a smile on your face every time. In terms of capability the V8 land rover 100" climbs much better than the 1600 sj ever did but beyond that's it's probably hard to call.

I love isuzu, I'm very loyal to them I think as isuzu UK are small they're very approachable, I've met both the md and marketing manager before now, when I had a Ford you couldn't even speak to a dealer manager, but they are selling a product made by a big company, so it's not made out of a scrap parts bin like say tvr were.

I think I'm going to have to change pickup next year and I'm torn between the ranger and dmax. We have both at work and I like the big engine and heated screen on the Ford but it does 6mpg less than the dmax and my past fords weren't as reliable as the Isuzu has been.

[d-9]

As much as it pains me, I was very impressed with a mates patrol offroad.

Insane axle articulation and standard rear locker meant it was very capable, even on ATs. That mate previously had a 110 on MTs, which he got successfully bogged into his woods on a few occasions. The Patrol went in further in worse conditions and came out every time. Then we took it green laning at christmas, it just worked perfectly, the only issue being the sheer bulk of it and the constant scratching on the sides from brambles and branches, at one point we got bored of waiting for the landrovers, so reversed back down through the boggy bit to see what everyone was playing at (removing a roofrack so they could get under a low branch) then went back through the bog, just no drama at all.

If I had to have a 4x4 for work, I would definitely look at one, it was way more reliable than the 110 and far nicer on the road. As a toy, no way, theyre just not something that you love in the same way as a landrover.

[honitonhobbit]

You'll like the new suspension option

Eibach, Bilstein and SuperPro

Huge hoonability on the road form the new Eibach ARB - yet sooo nice off road

I loved my SJ's - they were the best off road toy ever. But I did a few long distance journeys round Eastern and Western Europe and down into Turkey - not for the faint hearted

[Cynic-al]

Lol I wouldn't want one on road that's for sure!

Will see what isuzu have to offer then. I remember they offered a coil sprung all round l200 at one bit as a sports option but ive never seen one.

[honitonhobbit]

Me neither

The problem with the SJ was no torque. I ran three over the years, one with a 1.6 8 valve, one with a 1.6 16 valve on carbs (yes plural) and one with a 1.3 twin cam. The later was the best. 120bhp at 7500rpm. Rev limiter set to 8k. Like a really angry wasp. Did an 11 hour non stop run to Grenoble from Calais once - went a bit mad for a while

[GW8IZR]

I guess that's a different question. And not really one I'm asking. But a valid question none the less.

Yes I din't articulate my point well :-)

What I think I was trying to say is your asking how does a modern 4x4 (like a Hilux) compare to an old SWB LR design (coils or leafs..) which are two vehicles designed for very different purposes. Of course the manufacturer will claim lineage and heritage to the Australian outback and indestructibility of the Hiluxes but the new Hilux is very different to the old Hilux.. just an example.

comparing an SJ to a Series is much closer, both very competent vehicles but both older tech - square corners, good off road, pretty abysmal in modern traffic conditions. ( actually I do like the new Suzuki and have a soft spot for the old SJ80 if I could find one )

I f your are asking how I think my brand new Hilux would fare against my old stock series 2 in a trial.. .. well I'd not have many clear rounds in one of them and I reckon the repairs to the body would be significant.

But you know all this.

[honitonhobbit]

But how would your modern hi-lux fare against the series in carrying 3/4 tonne of tools from Exeter to North Wales and then across two fields, through a wood and up a small hill in the rain, to fix a broken expensive thing?

[GW8IZR]

But how would your modern hi-lux fare against the series in carrying 3/4 tonne of tools from Exeter to North Wales and then across two fields, through a wood and up a small hill in the rain, to fix a broken expensive thing?

I've just driven my very nice 90 from Bolton to Anglesey at fairly steady speeds and my ears need another hour to recover :-)

[honitonhobbit]

Exactly. None of my subbies will use a Land Rover defender unless it's for a specific job - for example getting a MEWP to a difficult site. You can tow a chipper perfectly well with a Ranger/Mazda/Toyota/Mitsi/Isuzu - especially with the Dmax - and they all drive better and are more comfortable. Most have traction aids, so chuck a decent set of tyres on and throw a Tirfor in the back. When the going gets silly then we use the fun stuff - but it rarely does

[Cynic-al]

I had the 1600 8v vitara engine on a single SU and it wasn't the most powerful engine ever made thats for sure, I think they were around 80bhp? I lowered the gearing in the transfer box and diffs to help it out and it made a big difference on axle twisters etc as you didn't have to ride the clutch / brake all the time but it made it more difficult to get hills right. Power was probably between 4000 and 6000 rpm and when it's geared that flat out in 5th low is about 12mph that doesn't give you a great power band to work with. Thats one thing I love about the V8 auto

I do miss it, it was great fun If it helps keep it on topic a range rover classic drove along this before me without falling over

[GW8IZR]

I did have just one driver who wanted to use a Defender in place of the Navara and then the Hilux but he was the only one. He did have a Puma 110 for a few months and hated it even though he wouldn't really admit it. He just used his own TD5 90 at his own expense most of the time which I thought was bizarre but there is nothing as odd as folk... and as a long term LR addict I think I'm qualified to say LR folk are about the oddest :-)

We used to build mobile base stations onto Defender chassis cabs but of course not now. I went to see Arctic Trucks who are doing something similar on a stretched LC chassis and it drove so well I was slightly disappointed, I really wanted to say the Defender was better ....

[Chicken Drumstick]

Well if your just talking an offroad toy I preferred my very modded sj to my very modded land rover. The smaller size meant that you knew what every wheel was doing and it just put a smile on your face every time. In terms of capability the V8 land rover 100" climbs much better than the 1600 sj ever did but beyond that's it's probably hard to call.

Yep, SJ's I like too, being the predecessor to the Jimny. I know they are good off road too.

Small is good off road in the UK. One of these days I hope to build one of these:

[Chicken Drumstick]

Yes I din't articulate my point well :-)

What I think I was trying to say is your asking how does a modern 4x4 (like a Hilux) compare to an old SWB LR design (coils or leafs..) which are two vehicles designed for very different purposes. Of course the manufacturer will claim lineage and heritage to the Australian outback and indestructibility of the Hiluxes but the new Hilux is very different to the old Hilux.. just an example.

comparing an SJ to a Series is much closer, both very competent vehicles but both older tech - square corners, good off road, pretty abysmal in modern traffic conditions. ( actually I do like the new Suzuki and have a soft spot for the old SJ80 if I could find one )

I f your are asking how I think my brand new Hilux would fare against my old stock series 2 in a trial.. .. well I'd not have many clear rounds in one of them and I reckon the repairs to the body would be significant.

But you know all this.

I think you are misunderstanding me.

First up, Land Rover's aren't old. Not all Defenders have been supplied yet... but regardless, they are still a 2015 vehicle. Regardless of their origin or heritage. I'm also not comparing new to old at all.

I'm comparing out the box ability.

I know you could jump in any Defender and it'd be highly capable out of the box.

Likewise, my p38a Range Rover is very capable out of the box too. Although small tyres and bigger bumpers do make it less capable out of the box than a Defender.

I've not owned a Jap alternative with IFS and I'm curious to know how they would perform. I did consider early this year buying a SWB Mitsubishi, in the end I didn't and I bought the Range Rover in the summer.

What I'd like to know is, if I had bought something IFS... Could I have gone and done the same off roading in it out of the box? Not so much RTV trials, more recreational off roading, but retaining it as a road car, not a dedicated Prick & Prat site vehicle.

Slightly contradicting my op. When I had my Cherokee, it wasn't very good 100% UK spec off road. It was just too low, the suspension flex was fine, but it got beached on a bit that a 90 wouldn't even know what a challenge. An easy to £90 lift kit later and it was as good as any standard 90 however. I still think they are capable, as in the USA you could buy them from Jeep with a standard lift kit (called an Up Country model), so it probably wouldn't be an issue.

[Chicken Drumstick]

e.g.

Something really simple (and silly maybe), a poser shot.

Both 100% standard Land Rover's at the time of the photo on standard size tyres. Both vehicle have all 4 wheels on the ground and will happily drive backwards or forwards no problem, and neither beach themselves when ascending this slope (A Freelander or when my Cherokee was stock height do, and they get stuck, wheels off the ground).

My 100% standard p38a on 18" road tyres will also do the same. Although it does smack the rear bumper on the way down and just kisses the chassis rails when ascending.

[Cynic-al]

I think a swb Mitsubishi with a factory rear difflock would be a reasonable match your range rover offroad and depending exactly what you look for in a road car probably on road too. I think you'd have to do some bodywork to match your defender offroad if you didn't want the plastic bumpers being damaged. To get the defender to match the Mitsubishi on road you'd probably have to sell it and buy a freelander

I guess you'd never really know if they were right for you unless you tried one.

What I would say is that my RRC was not really any better offroad than my pickup until I cut all the plastic trim off the bumper where the spot lights go and took the towbar off. That and the fact that I didn't care what damage I did to the RRC but I'd be gutted if I even scratched the pickup. It changes the way you approach something!

[honitonhobbit]

Defenders are old - it's an old design, patched up with bits of modern on a regular basis. The only issue with your P38 is the bodywork. Move that and it will out perform the Defender every day. Take a UK spec Cherry 2.5 Diesel with the LSD and 1.5" extra spring height and it will keep up with the Defender off road and easily surpass it on road.

But I always remember Alan Kidd (Ed at TOR) saying you had to spend 5k on a TJ Jeep to make it as good as a Defender out of the box. At the time I think this was true. The KJ is a lot better.

When you drive an indie vehicle (and lets use the 4x4 pickup as an example), you are driving a compromise, a concession to varied needs/requirements. It is unfair to compare.

However the Champ, the early Austin Gypsy and even the MUTT (to a point, but not on the road or at speed) proved that independent suspension can work better than a live axle - but at a cost

It all comes down to driving ability and attitude. There is no such thing as a good off road driver - just someone who understands the limits of what he is driving and can match them

[GW8IZR]

I think you are misunderstanding me.

First up, Land Rover's aren't old. Not all Defenders have been supplied yet... but regardless, they are still a 2015 vehicle. Regardless of their origin or heritage. I'm also not comparing new to old at all.

I'm comparing out the box ability.

I know you could jump in any Defender and it'd be highly capable out of the box.

Likewise, my p38a Range Rover is very capable out of the box too.

What I'd like to know is, if I had bought something IFS... Could I have gone and done the same off roading in it out of the box? Not so much RTV trials, more recreational off roading, but retaining it as a road car, not a dedicated Prick & Prat site vehicle.

No I can read pretty well..

I can jump in one of my LC's and its pretty good out of the box, what it misses in articulation it makes up in traction aids.

I would put one of our LC's up against a RR and it would fare well.

However new a Defender is .. its still old technology really.

[honitonhobbit]

78 Cruiser.... mmmmmmm

[qwakers]

I notice no one has yet mentioned the BMW X, hyundai, kia , ford, Porsche or other horrendous tesco explorer offerings

Waiting for some snow so I can cheer myself up watching the performance of soft roaders.

Coat.......door

I did...

[Chicken Drumstick]

Defenders are old - it's an old design, patched up with bits of modern on a regular basis.

Not sure I really agree. I'm not trying to say it's new, but what other live axles vehicles do anything any better? And no, I don't consider live axle old and independent new. As both have been around a long long time.

As a product the Defender could do with some updates, mostly in production techniques. But the basis of the design is fine.

But I always remember Alan Kidd (Ed at TOR) saying you had to spend 5k on a TJ Jeep to make it as good as a Defender out of the box. At the time I think this was true. The KJ is a lot better.

That's a rather over zealous comment I'd have thought. The only thing you really need to do is a suspension lift, as they ride low out of the factory. That and maybe some taller tyres. Can't see that being £5k.

When you drive an indie vehicle (and lets use the 4x4 pickup as an example), you are driving a compromise, a concession to varied needs/requirements. It is unfair to compare.

Not sure what an "indie" vehicle is.

But I don't think it's unfair to compare to. If you want to buy a 4x4 to go an play off road, lets say laning, pay & play and stuff like that. Budget of £7k,, then pickups are right in that price point and available. Plus a lot of Land Rover's are pick ups anyhow.

[Chicken Drumstick]

However new a Defender is .. its still old technology really.

Not really wanting to divert the thread too much.

But curious, in what way? A p38a's only real difference is air springs. But I think that's pretty harsh to call a p38a old technology.

The body mounting and construction is more utilitarian on a Defender. But that doesn't have any bearing on it's off road abilities.

[GW8IZR]

Not really wanting to divert the thread too much.

But curious, in what way? A p38a's only real difference is air springs. But I think that's pretty harsh to call a p38a old technology.

The body mounting and construction is more utilitarian on a Defender. But that doesn't have any bearing on it's off road abilities.

Old as in .. well its setup is not much different to the RRC which was being developed a very long time ago in terms of car development. A few new engines and deeper chassis rails but not much to choose otherwise.

Its difficult to say something is old without there being an implied suggestion it is bad.. Nthing wrong with being old (I'm proof of that) however cars designed for todays traffic conditions, driver expectations and other softer considerations.. are all the things that make a Defender unsuitable for most uses.

With a healthy dose of cognitive dissonance we can focus on its ability to sail round a trials field and say its a good vehicle but in truth its design means so many other aspects of its operation are .. well, 'old'

My 1954 tractor is pretty good round a trials field and that has only got suspension in the seat and my spine.

Skoda Octavia 4x4 .. I took one of those to places in Norway that the locals said were impossible, the only thing that would have stopped it was x-axle stuff, but by knowing that and putting my boots on when needed it never once got stuck, and a thoroughly nice car to live in for a while.

Our LC's are very impressive but as someone earlier in this thread said they are a bit big for off road use in the UK - I reckon they would eat the terrain in your two videos at the start of the thread but minor body damage would be inevitable. If you needed to repair that to new condition it would be an expensive day out.

[Cynic-al]

As a product the Defender could do with some updates, mostly in production techniques. But the basis of the design is fine.

I think the production improvements could help price (compare a base level pickup with a base level defender).

I think saying the basis of the design is fine again depends what your doing with it, if it's just an offroad play thing then ok, but must people need more, that's why the D1 is so popular. Sorry if the facts are wrong but I'm working from memory;

What are they, 90bhp? compared to the isuzu at 160

27mpg? compared to the isuzu pickup at 35mpg

wading depth 500mm compared to the ranger at 800mm.

I can drive a long way without feeling cramped, cold, ringing ears etc etc etc.

I can pallet load a 600kg mould tool into my pickup, wouldn't be as easy in a defender pickup.

Of course it's all down to personal preference. None of those things matter if its just a play thing.

[honitonhobbit]

An Indie - is an independently axled vehicle - both or just front

The Defender really is (and I am a complete nut about Defender) a very old design wrapped in shiny stuff. It has had no truly original thought ever (except the TD5). It's a Series with an RRC drive train, fitted with a transit lump, attached to an upgraded 1970's five speed box. Lada came up with the drive train a year before LR. ABS traction control has been around forever.... Very little innovation ever happens in the motor industry. What the Defender has is character. When I was still working for LR thy were increasing sales of Defender 3% year on year with NO advertising and the best reputation for unreliability in the world. When I was working for Toyota Gibraltar Stockholdings (Aid Vehicles) the Toyota guys would have killed for that.... Why do you think they haven't changed it for so long....

A 4" lift for a TJ was, at the time a lot of money - there were two places in the UK that you could buy them and they had labour rates like a modern day LR dealer. The bulk of LR bolt on suspension stuff is cheap rubbish - even the pricey stuff; but the thing to note is LR spares ARE cheap in price!

If you had driven a stock TJ (or YJ) back to back with a TD5 90 you would really appreciate where he was coming from - the comment was made with artistic content wrapped around knowledge and fact

You'd be surprised how the cheaper end of the 4x4 pickup market is taking over from LR - especially now the Disco one is becoming rarer. A Vitara is a pita to fit the wife and two kids in and it's got sod all ground clearance unless you wreck the gearing. An L200 is roomy but has a smaller silhouette so fits under stuff better. It's got good ground clearance and will pull bigger tyres - it's also got an LSD