Expert help Required

[Snagger]

Very briefly, but I don't like it.  Even without the rad and any flow, a level of water in the block will help as a heat soak.  In all honesty, you can check for fuel delivery without firing the engine by disconnecting the injector pipes.  But as long as you limit the engine run to under 10 seconds at idle, it'll be alright.

[skirky dave]

Right..ok..,i see what you mean.

The reason i thought i would ask, is, because IF, i had the timing off by ONE tooth, ( which i'm sure i haven't because every arrow and dot lines up). I didn't like the thought of stripping everything back off again including the timing case to re/adjust it.

I may have to trust my gut feeling and put everything back on and keep my fingers crossed. As you say..i can check for fuel at the injectors whilst the cover/radiator is back on.

 

[Snagger]

Whenever I change a belt, I always turn the engine over a few times by hand and then recheck the alignment of the timing marks.  It is important to do it by hand, ideally with heater plugs or injectors out, so that you can feel any excess resistance and stop turning it before damaging something if it is misset.  If that passes muster, then firing the engine with the case open and water pump off will be OK as long as it is brief, less than 10 seconds as I said.  I would strongly recommend filling the water system in the engine as much as possible first so that the water can help keep the cylinder temperatures down and reduce thermal shock.

[skirky dave]

Cheers again Snagger.

I had a long think about everything you said and i came to the conclusion that it would be safer, ( after all the work i had done) to play it safe and refit things, and as you say, remove the injectors and hand turn the engine on the crank. 

I may loose a couple of hours in having to refit everything but i think it's more important to play on the side of caution. A couple more hours work, in the greater scheme of things is immaterial.

Better to be safe.

Cheers again mate.

[Les Henson]

Every time I replace the timing belt on any car I start it and briefly rev it if it's safe to do so. If the injector pump timing is out then cranking the engine by hand won't show that up, so a quick start and rev will confirm all is ok.

 

 

Les

[Snagger]

Turning the engine over a few times by hand will show any timing sprocket errors.  Using a scrap R380 reverse light switch as a flywheel locking tool will allow the fuel pump timing to be set with the aid of a drill bit.  I can't remember the size needed on a Lucas pump, but it goes in through the side plate and you rotate the pump casing on its mountings to centre the drill bit in a notch in an internal wheel.  The notch will only come round once for every two crank rotations, so if there is no groove inside the pump, remove the flywheel locking pin and rotate 360 degrees and relock the flywheel.  If you can't get such a locking tool or old R380 switch, then you can check the slot in the flywheel is centred on the brass plug aperture by eye, but be careful the crank does turn while setting the pump position.

[skirky dave]

 

OK,.., i'm pretty sure i've done this right, following advice and reading past posts, but feel free to correct me if i haven't.

The crank was turned ,..clockwise, until flywheel timing notch appeared, ...removed flywheel 13mm brass timing nut to see this. 

I managed to find an old nail/pin and slotted this into the fuel pump. 13mm nut needed removing on the side. This locked the pump in the correct position regarding the fuel pumps chest's timing marks.

Cam wheel was was also turned to it's corresponding timing mark

.

The belt was then fitted with extreme care, so not to run the risk of disturbing the timing marks.

Once everything lined up, i re/checked the flywheel,....all good.

I then removed the pump timing pin and turned the crankshaft until the Crankshaft-Camshaft-fuel pumps timing marks lined up,..Which they did. Bang on.

Then..re/checked the flywheels mark, and again..bang on.

I have since, turned the crankshaft  a couple of times  ( just to satisfy myself that everything's ok)... all is still on their timing marks.

Final adjustment (fine tuning) of the fuel pump shall be done after the engine's started.

I think that's got it covered but if not........Please feel free to advise.  ( Been reading...ALOT!!)

Cheers

Dave.

[Snagger]

That all sounds good.

The sprockets can only fit in one position on their shafts, and once the belt is on and tensioned, as long as all the sprockets were aligned with their marks, then they should stay that way - only a belt failure, the belt jumping the sprocket teeth because of foreign objects getting between them, or massive bearing failure allowing a shaft to move and release the belt tension can allow the shaft timing to drift out.

With the shaft timing set, the pump timing is the only thing that can still be adjusted regarding timing.  This is done by turning the pump case as you have done.  So, it sounds like you have finished static timing.  Dynamic timing adjustment will refine it.  For that, you'll need to see how the engine runs on the road.  Make a scribe or indelible pen mark across the pump-timing case interface to mark the current alignment.  Once you can drive the engine and have it settled in, then you can start moving the pump a little at a time to find where it runs best.  Turn it no more than 1mm at a time initially, then finer as you find the right zone to find the exact spot.  The lines you made will help you see how much you're moving the pump, but also give you the "safe" position to reset back to if the adjustments start going wrong without having to get the timing tools out again.  Easy starting, white smoke and smooth running are signs of over advancement.  Difficult starting, harsh running with more noise and vibration and black smock indicate retarded fuel timing.  You should get thin grey smoke on full throttle with a slight bark from the exhaust at full throttle, but no smoke and smooth running the rest of the time with little starting difficulty, but perhaps not as easy with advanced timing.  Remember, it is the case and not the spindle that you are adjusting, so to advance the timing, you need to turn the pump case the opposite way to engine rotation, and to retard timing, you need to turn the case the same way as the engine runs.  That engine direction is indicated easily by the fan blades (as long as you use the engine fan rather than electric, which I always strongly recommend).

Well done for getting this far.

[skirky dave]

Snagger, Many thanks for your help, and kind words.

The information regarding the timing,/ retarding / advancing/ colour of smoke / and using the fan as an aid,.. is all very, very helpful.

Thank you.

Also, a big thank you to LES, for all his help/information. Spent a long time looking over your tutorials. Very helpful Les, CHEERS.

I'm not a mechanic/engineer but armed with enough information, instruction and given an understanding as to the why and how something works or becomes a problem, i'll give it a go, and try to fathom an answer.

To many others reading or following this ongoing article, it may be self explanatory and boring, but to others ..it may help and that's what it's all about. That's the reason i posted those images.

An elderly gentleman who lives down the road, used to work for Triumph and he told me " If you put a little bit of grease on the Rocker's Caps, it will help stop them moving and the possibility of losing one" He was right.  Love old school idea's. Very simple, but works.

Regarding the pump timing marks, as you suggest, for ( fine timing )  the pump. I shall use the same method with the Tippex and then a pencil line. These marks will the be replaced with a more permanent  solution,   i.e , a sharp fine chisel line. The indents can then be painted with red paint and the excess rubbed off leaving only the recessed red timing marks for a visual aid in the future..

As soon as this is finished, i shall post the images of the new, and removable engine mount that i fabricated. Of course...i wasn't aware that an existing engine mount was available, at the time!!!. GUTTED. It took an age to make mine, for reasons i shall explain later. BUT..It works !!',

Just for future reference..any idea as to the flywheel timing pump locking pin device part number. One of these could be very helpful in the future and a solid investment to my tool box.

See if i can get her started today!!!!!.

Cheers guys

Dave.

 

[Snagger]

Don't spend money on a flywheel locking tool, just get a broken R380 reverse light switch.  A Series or LT77 switch may also fit, but would have a longer casing.  Shouldn't matter, though.   But a broken switch from a bin would be much cheaper, and being spring loaded means they engage in the slot automatically as you rotate the flywheel, unlike the proper pins I have tried which need manual insertion.

Using grease as a temporary "glue" is very useful.  Heavy grease works best.  It is also good for holding gaskets in place and helping them seal whilst also preventing them from permanently sticking like they do if used dry or with gasket sealants, which makes future maintenance much easier.

Remember to put generous amounts of copper grease on the bolts which secure the water pump and thermostat housing - it stops them corroding and seizing in place.

[skirky dave]

Well.............Did everything i was advised to do, and then hit 2 problems, ( 1-Battery completely dead, even my mates Ctek charger couldn't rescue it so it must have been on it's way for a while ).   ( 2-Water pump fitted for FIXED fan, hate the viscous units,...BUT  i didn't realise that i required the 2.25,petrol / diesel / 2.5 diesel water pump PULLY wheel.

Both the 15j and 19J TD use the viscous units, AAAARGH.

Oh well, back to the bay of evil and found someone selling one, CHEAP!!. So have to wait for that to arrive. And i've got to buy a new battery, 800 - 900cca more £.

What a pain, and now the weather's changing and Autumn's on it's way.. Ok for you though Nick. Wall to wall sunshine.

I do have one question though, if you can help....I've found an alternator that's for sale..12V- 120 amp AMR 2938  Land rover military surplus stock £68.50+vat +delivery. Question is..will it fit the 2,5 of mine ?.  fair price???.  Mine's a standard 45 AMP i think.

Dave.

 

[Snagger]

I suspect such a high rating alternator will be a serpentine belt type and for the 300Tdi.  I have a 200 and 300Tdi, but I have never taken the time to see if they're interchangeable.  I suspect not.  Certainly the 200Tdi alternators do, though the Discovery versions need the front cover to be "flipped" for the mounting lug to be in the right place (remove the three long external bolts, rotate the front cover and refit the bolts - just that simple if you ever have to do it).

I thought the 12/19J water pump pulley was the same regardless of fan type, being mounted tot he pump with four bolts into the threaded pump spindle flange.  Viscous fans would then be fitted using the reverse thread at the centre while 12J fixed fans would use long bolts through their cast aluminium adaptor that sits over that viscous thread with longer bolts through the fan, adaptor and pulley into the spindle flange.  I just used my SIII four bladed fan (bolt holes filed out a little to match the PCD of the pulley) and later an MoD FFR 10 bladed fan so that they'd fit the SIII cowl.

 

"Winter is coming" is not a comment associated with dread here!  Still over 40oC and very humid.  Winter gives clearer skies, lest dust and temperatures in the high 20s to low 30s, which is just perfect.

[skirky dave]

The site i was looking at was www.THEXMOD.com ...vehicle parts..land rover page 1. there is no serpentine belt wheel attached to it BUT it does state for a V8.

I may look at the 200 TDI alternator if it's around the 65amp mark. The 120 amp may be a little OTT. But i just thought i would ask for advice first.

Good tip about flipping the front cover..cheers.

The fixed fan bolt holes are MUCH narrower than the viscous unit, in fact i noticed an additional spacer that can be fitted ( ERC 7489, FROM THE SAME COMPANY) but I think i can get away with using the series water pump pulley wheel. The problem with using the spacer, from what i can see/measure, is that the overall length might interfere with the series radiator. In other words...be too long, shall have to see how i go on

1 hour ago, Snagger said:

 

"Winter is coming" is not a comment associated with dread here!  Still over 40oC and very humid.  Winter gives clearer skies, lest dust and temperatures in the high 20s to low 30s, which is just perfect.

.............................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................

Can't imagine Christmas in those temperatures,  Something WRONG THERE, me thinks.....and no snow!!!.

You must really hate all that sunshine and warmth. HA HA..

 

[Les Henson]

With the amount of work you have done it's unlikely that you'll be able to start it on the battery. A far more easier solution is to tow start it.

 

 

Les.

[skirky dave]

Hi Les,

Yes i seem to remember you mentioning this in a post i read..somewhere but i'm sure it was this forum,

Are they really that much of a pain to start after undertaking this kind of work??.  ..If need be, i shall call in a favour from a mate of mine.

At first, i was under the impression i might have to wear my fingers out working the lift pump,----from the Filter to the Pump to the injectors etc etc, just to clear the air and getting it to start.  THIS COULD BE FUN !!!.

A mate of mine has told me he has a spare 800cca battery on almost constant charge that he uses to jump start motors in the winter,  in his garage. May borrow that until i can buy one. I shall have to start looking up decent battery suppliers maybe with delivery thrown in. Bit of a minefield really trying to find a really good battery without paying through the nose. Especially with winter just around the corner. It has to have some serious cca.

Cheers Les.

[Bowie69]

Tayna for batteries

 

Though your local motor factor will be able to help too. Any reason why it has to be a monster and not the regular LR size?

[Snagger]

I can't see any reason the engine should have difficulty starting normally.  The fuel system would need priming, but other than that, it should fire straight up with a battery that holds half a charge.  My engines did when I did full rebuilds on them.  I'd crack the bleed screw on the filter and wait for fuel to emerge, then the same on the injection pump, turning the engine over on the starter motor.  It always works for me...

Dave, the SIII fan will fit with a little adjustment of the bolt holes and does the job just fine.  It fits the rad and the cowl.  Simple and cheap.

[skirky dave]

Bowie69,

Hi mate, This is unchartered waters for me and i can only go on the recommendations from people with more experience.

From what i have read,..not just on this forum, but from a cross reference of many land rover forums, it would appear, that the general opinion would be , to use the largest cca battery i can fit. By all accounts ( only from what i've read  of course ) is that,diesels use a lot of battery power, especially in winter and freezing overnight conditions just to get the engine started and that , by all accounts,..it then takes 30 miles to replace the energy the battery has used, So if i'm stop starting through out the day, that's a lot of power depleted from the battery.  So long as i can get hold of a battery with plenty of oomph, i don't really care, Just a little fed up with re/charging batter's through the winter.

Thanks for the heads up on Tayna, I'll look them up.

Cheers mate

Dave.

[skirky dave]

Nick,

Seems there's different methods for achieving the same results, i can only go on what the Haynes manual states for certain procedures.

Some are obviously easier than others. WHY doesn't the manual state these. It would make life a lot easier.

The manual seems to do things from A-Z in order to get things done, which is a long winded approach when in fact other options are faster with the same end result.

But there again, i suppose experience only comes from trying different methods. Of which mine is pretty much zilch, BUT LEARNING MATE.

I was talking to a bloke the other day regarding the water pump/pulley problem, and he said   "mm you could open the holes up but what you don't want is the fan slightly off kilter or you may cause damage to the water pump bearing, there supposed to run true" .......Just how much truth there is behind that,...i don't know, But the series 3 water pump pulley only cost me a few quid, Nothing really.

Dave.

[Bowie69]

Diesels do indeed oftenrequire a higher cranking current, however Land Rover did think of this when they designed the truck, so unless you are going to be winching or going down to -40C then what is recommended by Land Rover, and Tayna will be absolutely fine for normal use.

 

Have you charged your current battery? It may even be OK...

[skirky dave]

Yes, i put it on my mates Ctek mxs 5 charger and after it got to stage 5, the red error warning light came on. We then put it onto my charger which is rubbish compered to his, and again the charger faulted . I placed my volt meter across the terminals and the battery stated 12.1v. Then  after only a few seconds it started dropping 11.9 -11.8 etc etc to 10.9 which is then, that we knew, a serious problem was with the battery. In fact, just give me a second, i'll check it now!!.

[skirky dave]

MMM 10.3v definately had it mate.

[skirky dave]

Should also add, i tried charging it again last night, in the hope things might come right, BUT  nope!!

[skirky dave]

Wouldn't you know it,..Tayna website is down at the moment!!! However the intended battery i believe, is a 069  somewhere between 540-570 cca £109 -£120

The one i was using was RAC 800CCA, NOW defunct.

What do you guys use/prefer.

[skirky dave]

I should also mention, that on the top of my current RAC defunct battery, there's a so called spy hole which used to give off a bright green light affair. The battery states on the top that, Green=fully charged, Black =needs charging, White=Test..whatever that means!.  Battery's current status = Black.