PaulN

Wondering......why is it necessary to alter the fuel pump timing when removing the EGR and fitting a bypass? Extract from the Disco manual and H@ynes: 300 Tdi ENGINE Type ................................................................................ 2.5 Litre Turbo diesel intercooled Firing order ..................................................................... 1-3-4-2 Injection timing ............................................................... 1,54 mm lift at T.D.C. Injection timing with electronic EGR ............................ 1,40 mm lift at T.D.C. Injection timing with EDC .............................................. 0,45 mm lift at T.D.C.

Ooops! Didn't read the Eblag bit! Ho Hum!

Okay Jason, I have soon to replace my battery and have had it out on charge a couple of days so these might help..... Mine is a 1996 300 tdi (RHD) and has the dims as follows: Standing in front vehicle; Left to right the tray base is 330 wide from left inner wing (But there is another 50 mm of air before rad if needed). Front to back is 210 but the is a rising chamfer at back of base tray which reduces tray base plate to 195. There is a battery clamp the rod of which hooks at the back no probs but the front threaded rod goes through a hole in base plate which is 180mm from the back. (This you can ignore if you secure some other way!) My Unipart battery is clamped by it, however, and so that's why my little battery at 207 x 165 x 210 fits in with room to spare. HTH

I paid £4 at Tesco for 1L

" Once the tax man realises that we no longer use heating fuel in our house I think they will come and lock me away " Nice one!

Hi Guys, Yes - I use it all the time for it's obvious benefits, already mentioned. Found my original info off a 'Transit Forum' but this makes a really good read too: Linky Seems that some fuels are very low in the lubricant quantity these days and they are also sneaking in BioFuels too - simply to add to 'Green creds'. I also use it in my Rover 75 - that goes better too! I often wondered about the red but that is what I use and when changing a fuel filter the contents poured into a glass jar appears brown anyway. As I always carry 2 or 3 100ml plastic bottles (in Blue Peter Fashion) in the boot for when I fill up 'away' I'll be able to demonstrate the honesty of my remonstrations - if and when it occurs - followed up of course by the receipts or visa bill for my honest fuel bills! So not to worry A Good Christmas Wish to one and all. :P

I wouldn't have anything other than an AT tyre on my Disco. They're not aggressive at all just dashed good all rounders - especially the Goodrich AT and they run true and stick to high speed corner really well. Most of my miles are on metaled surfaces, motorway miles with high cruising speeds and on shale tracks - as we live out in the sticks. I also have an Ifor Williams double axle trailer for fully loaded work too. I concur that your friend will need some bite on wet field grass/slime. IMO no car like tyre will do anything other than slick up under those conditions neither will they give up to 80,000 miles on the road! Whilst they're expensive to put on the harder wear factor makes them good value. I have to say that I've only got up to 52,000 miles out of Goodrich All Terrain so far but I'm happy with that and that's not bad for a hefty truck. What I would call aggressive are the Mud Terrain (MT) tyres and I would again agree they're not for him. That's be my choice.... Oh!......and she goes anywhere in the snow on them too! HTH

" Gutless Disco, Advice needed " EGR valve gunged up or stuck open? Take off and clean or fit a bypass

Hey Boydie - thanks again! Your post that you seem to have lost is visible at post #27. However, it appears that others as well as myself will look forward to your results and I for one understand your point re returning to Factory set up. As a matter of interest - from whom did you get the timing light? Probably far too expensive for the home DIYer!

Thanks for taking interest Boydie. I am keen to hear your results - it's good of you to offer the data. I have read your entry with interest - you have done a lot of work there and I note your comments therein. Can I say that I am keen to make changes in order to achieve optimum running and primarily to alleviate symptoms - not to create a racer! You have picked up on the fact that it is not clear to any amateur like me, when trying to problem solve, where the start point is, the incremental shifts are and where a known end point is - in respect of setting FIP timing - unless one has the tools you are referring to. My truck runs really well (very well) and has had a lot of work done to the engine internals to try and stop the smoke. It didn't! The only thing that did fix it was a small shift to the pump timing by a small amount - but a shift into the unknown! That did not, however, solve the engine knockiness. Without these two issues I wouldn't be pursuing FIP timing at all. Anyway - sitting tight!

Yeah - thanks for that Steve. That's more or less the the process we used except the pump is slightly different. We're dialled in a 1.4 lift and the timing pin slides straight in so we're exactly right but for the fact that it appears that for non egr versions we should be at 1.54 as previously mentioned. Now I think, and from the looks of your vid, that the higher the number the more advanced you get. That I know would stop the smoking but would it increase the noise? Two things concern me; 1) provided there a clockwise rotation of the pump spindle one should be advancing the timing but the dial reading might be going down if we're on the back side of the cam/lobe dunno ?? 2) I have never seen, heard or read any advice given to those wishing to remove their EGR valves that they should also be adjusting the timing!!??

Happy to oblige : Okay it’s been a while but here’s an update: Bought some pins and set timing to ‘Factory Standard’ (Whatever that is!) Not surprisingly the smoke was back! but this was to be expected as the smoking was ‘cured’ by a small advance. At least I now have a home point. What was a surprise was that this small amount of retard did not stop the hard clackety knocking noisy engine. Sounds like a single cylinder knock so I suppose it could be something else. But keeping on the timing topic.... Anyway, tried a .5mm smaller drill bit to set the timing fwd by a ‘known’ amount of advance but it was difficult to be consistent. The setting became variable as you can’t stop the undersized pin from cranking between the two apertures. So once again I’m setting a small but unknown amount. Engine is still hard and noisy. Reset back to ‘pins standard’. Forum quote different thread: ”How do you intend to check the timing? Just with the pins in the injector and the flywheel? That's not very accurate. “ Sooo - taking heed of this and comments above - off to the Pump Specialists where we put in a ‘lift’ (Dell?) meter and discovered that the timing as set by me on the pins was spot on to his charts “for your pump” he said “requires 1.4 lift at TDC” he said “+ or - .02”! So we left it there - drove home - till knocky and smokey next morning! Referred to a number of threads on this Forum (spanning several years) and also the ol’ Haynes and they all concur that lift should actually be 1.54 NOT 1.4!!!!! :o 1.4 is for “Injection Pump with electronic EGR”!! Ggrrrr! - wish I could get hold of one of those 'Snap On' or 'Sykes' piezo thingies that Mr Attryll is always on about to set 10 degrees and be done with it!! Anyway - another Forum Quote just to confirm: “ 1. On EGR valve equipped cars, pump lift must be exactly 1.40mm at TDC (No.1 cyl!) 2. On EGR-blanked off cars pump lift must be 1.54mm at TDC (No1 cyl!) “ As my truck has long since had an EGR bypass I should be on 1.54 then!!? Looks like another trip to the Pump Man........... Could someone please help by advising that I am correct in assuming that 1.54 lift will be more advanced than 1.4 ??

Okay it’s been a while but here’s an update: Bought some pins and set timing to ‘Factory Standard’ (Whatever that is!) Not surprisingly the smoke was back! but this was to be expected as the smoking was ‘cured’ by a small advance. At least I now have a home point. What was a surprise was that this small amount of retard did not stop the hard clackety knocking noisy engine. Sounds like a single cylinder knock so I suppose it could be something else. But keeping on the timing topic.... Anyway, tried a .5mm smaller drill bit to set the timing fwd by a ‘known’ amount of advance but it was difficult to be consistent. The setting became variable as you can’t stop the undersized pin from cranking between the two apertures. So once again I’m setting a small but unknown amount. Engine is still hard and noisy. Reset back to ‘pins standard’. Forum quote different thread: ”How do you intend to check the timing? Just with the pins in the injector and the flywheel? That's not very accurate. “ Sooo - taking heed of this and comments above - off to the Pump Specialists where we put in a ‘lift’ (Dell?) meter and discovered that the timing as set by me on the pins was spot on to his charts “for your pump” he said “requires 1.4 lift at TDC” he said “+ or - .02”! So we left it there - drove home - till knocky and smokey next morning! Referred to a number of threads on this Forum (spanning several years) and also the ol’ Haynes and they all concur that lift should actually be 1.54 NOT 1.4!!!!! :o 1.4 is for “Injection Pump with electronic EGR”!! Ggrrrr! - wish I could get hold of one of those 'Snap On' or 'Sykes' piezo thingies that Mr Attryll is always on about to set 10 degrees and be done with it!! Anyway - another Forum Quote just to confirm: “ 1. On EGR valve equipped cars, pump lift must be exactly 1.40mm at TDC (No.1 cyl!) 2. On EGR-blanked off cars pump lift must be 1.54mm at TDC (No1 cyl!) “ As my truck has long since had an EGR bypass I should be on 1.54 then!!? Looks like another trip to the Pump Man........... Could someone please help by advising that I am correct in assuming that 1.54 lift will be more advanced than 1.4 ??

Acknowledged! and thanks for the advice Dave - appreciated. I'll do just that and as you describe with a known fractionally smaller pin the amount would be repeatable! Duh! As far as smoke is concerned the small approx. 0.5mm move to advance cured that and I shall bear this fact in mind when, and if I, need to choose and undersized pin!!

Sorry for delay - not been about. Yes I can fall back to that. That is a sound and sane suggestion. I don't have them myself but can get it done. Question is what would that set the timing to? My guess is that, even though my pump pressures have been tested as okay, there may be some mechanical wear which will re-manifest itself in the original problem of smoke when set back, as you say, to 'Factory Standard'. If not - all well and good. If it does then "a small tweak to advance is what will be needed"!!! Vagaries of "a small tweak" and "an unknown starting point" I simply would prefer to be quantified.

Correct timing should give peak pressure at 10 degrees ATDC but compared to a petrol engine I think Deisel burns slower, so how important is it? It would simply be comforting to know that she was set to a known value - always remove variables to go forward. It's not important for performance - it's simply that engine doesn't sound right and there no way I know where the bloomin' pump timing is now - before tweaking! I know where it was as I've marked the position so I can always go back. Originally there was a smoke issue resolved by a 1/2 mm move to advance but she doesn't sound right, very clackety, never used too. For all I know this could be 10.5 degrees now! May be it was too far advanced and creating smoke - could try a 1/2 mm the other way - but it's all just guesswork!

No advice? Okay forget all the above cr@p..... Clean sheet..... How does one set the injector pump timing to a specific value of btdc please?

Yuk! - Just blown it!

Sorry it's been so long but I've not been able to get to do anything with the Disco and hopefully now I can close this thread down. Thanks for the info Chris but it's the point at which you mark and measure rather, which I only realised when I started my maths! I have established that for every 1mm it's .59 degrees on the FIP which is 1.18 degrees on the crank. My primary objective was to stop smoke - done that with half a mm and a further 1mm as said above. Since found that was a bit too much due to sound of engine didn't sound right too knocky. 2nd objective was to see if she would indeed run smoother at the (as previously mentioned many time on this Forum) suggested 10 degrees adv. which is "better for the 300 tdi". From my initial mark I have progressively moved to advance half a mm at a time and then checked to see how she ran. Now the thing is that I'm still p*ssing into the wind with out 1 more important piece of info and that is - where am I starting from? Assuming pinned up and properly fitted timing belt with marks on tdc what position is the FIP at - at that point? - 4, 5 10 degrees btdc? Don't know? I don't nor anyone I've asked! Thought I did know but turns out that it may well be a bit retarded to aid starting and the use of alternative fuel grades. Clearly, and to put it crudely, there is a delay before the squirt / spray manifests itself from the injector and then there is the flame dwell so I am probably right in saying you could be many many degrees advanced at the FIPs actual point of 'pump'. In which case I will never tell where the timing is at the FIP! All I can say is with a half mm move to advance it stopped the smoke and any further didn't affect the performance but made her rather knocky. Moving back to mark plus a hair!! - all okay and as long as I can get back to my start point I am happy to persue.... I will have to get or to borrow one of those piezo thingys to clip onto No1 injector and a timing light to sense the point of spray as per comments elsewhere - just need to try out this 10 degrees! Hope these updates might help someone.

Thanks Bully, It was only half mm! Not completely sorted until dialled in another 1mm. Smoke was there before new timing belt and still after new one and all other mods! Might help someone further if they went on to here... (Linky)

Thanks for brainstorming with me Dave. As I said before rather than to do nothing other than arbitrarily move the timing (cured smoke yes - but at what cost?) with a little more work one can definitively dial in a known value for accurate timing, stay inside the safe zone and have an efficient engine. So....... I'm aware I have to confirm the point on the FIP Pully that I'm marking and to ascertain the true circumference at that point but thanks for confirming the 2:1 speed differential. Taking 5" as a reasonable and theoretical starting point for now: 5" x 25.4 = 127mm 127mm x Pi = 398.8mm = Circumference 398.8mm / 360 = 1.1 degrees 2:1 = 2.2 degrees move of crank for each mm of movement of FIP (given this 5" diameter assumption) Great, unless I've missed something, now all I have to do is to insert an accurate figure in place of 5" and then test it in practice. Thanks for your help.

Nice spot Ralph and yes thankfully the smoking has been cured but the issue now is by how much have I moved the timing? Unless you've got a fancy piezo pulse counter thingy that you can set up on number 1 injection pipe and point a timing gun at a pre-marked crank pulley it's a bit like shooting in the dark. I have moved the spindle by a guesstimate of 1.5mm - how much advance is that??? Yes it fixed the smoking problem but what have I done? I might be adding another problem of running too advanced! The ultimate for me is to find 10 degrees advance (which is where the 300 tdi is reputedly supposed to run best at) - see what it runs like and then settle somewhere in between. I know the starting point of 4-5 degrees when a new belt is fitted properly but for all I know (without a little help) is that half a millimeter might be already have hit 10 degrees!!!! :o

My brain hurts..... 1. Does anyone know how much a 1mm move of the Pump spindle as measure on the plate edge would be in terms of degrees of the cranks rotation? 2. Put another way - what's the rotational relationship between the FIP drive shaft and crank? Then I can do the maths Anyone?

Well here we are. For those who followed - even those who got bored - I hope this thread will help someone avoid what I've been through. Compression tests did show cyl 3 was down and 1 also a bit. Off the head came with the full expectation of something obvious. There wasn't apparently! Slight play in some of the valves but all were intact. Nothing untoward in the bores - even the honing like new - tiny bit of glazing. But the compressions were variable between pots so away went the head for examination and refurb as necessary - as did the pistons for having new rings fitted. New valves where necessary, new guides where necessary, re-lapped valves, new head gasket and stretch bolts and..... ....and hey presto! She smoked even worse than before and for longer (grrr) :angry: Engine now quite clackety too. My theory here is that the engine is so gas tight now, with all the work done, that the problem is being emphasised. So a trip to discuss with Bosch pump specialist. Left over night to enable a cold start in the morning - boy did she oblige. We both agreed that, with all the work that's been done, there can be little else left other than the amount of fueling and/or the timing of that fueling. "I reckon Pump timing too" the Bosch Man said. Bonnet up. 15 mins later the IP pump drive spindle had been moved half a milimeter to advance. Retightened. Engine started. Quieter engine, NO SMOKE, much better drive! Each morning now NO SMOKE! NO Smoke! I should be ecstatic! NO SMOKE NO SMOKE NO SMOKE! NO SMOKE NO SMOKE NO SMOKE!

Yeah - looks strong but lighter!