VM Mods for reliability

[Captainbeaky]

I recently bought a LHD 1991 RRC three door with a VM 2.5 Turbo Diesel. It was very very cheap, and I wanted the car for the absolutely immaculate interior and general three door bits and bobs - I wasn't so bothered by the fact the engine was the VM 2.5.

I drove the car back from France to Madeira, and apart from 5 non-engine related breakdowns, I have to admit that at the end of the trip, I actually quite like the VM to drive. It's got so much more torque than the 200/300tdi, especially at lower revs, and I found that I got on with it very well indeed.

Having found a good engine - mine didn't use a drop of oil or water in the 2000km I drove it - I am seriously thinking of putting this engine in a RRC out here as my daily driver.

All the research I have done seems to point to the VM's achilles heel being it's intolerance of large temperature variations, and needing some care in it's operation (doesn't like being revved hard).

And, lets face it, the 1991 RRC cooling system installation was not exactly perfect...

Anyhoo -  my thoughts would be to carry out the sort of mods I do to a lot of cars out here -  beef up the cooling system significantly, with a much bigger radiator (probably from a 19j Defender in this instance), much bigger intercooler (Td5, or custom charge cooler?) / Mod the fan so it actually drives air (I think the fan visco coupling is US) and add extra electric fans.

So - What mods have others done to keep their VM running sweetly fro a long time? What else does it need?

Background:- I run an Engineering Workshop on the Portuguese Island of Madeira. I specialise in Landrovers and classic cars. 200/300tdi/TD5/R380/L:T230 rebuilds & modification are my bread and butter. But when it comes to the VM diesel, I have only ever experienced the 5 cylinder 3.1 VM's in a certain American 4x4 (and quite liked it) I have never actually come across the VM diesel before in a RRC (all my previous RRC's have had V8's)

Before I get a tirade of "you should put xxx engine in it", my personal preference would be a TD5 with VNT by CR Turbos and one of Jose Amorie's tunes (like the setup we fitted to a customer's very pleasant D2).

BUT... the Portuguese laws are very strict, and the car won't pass the MOT with anything other than the engine listed on the registration document. The MOT inspectors here are all LR fans, and know the marque, so even a 200/300tdi transplant into a VM RRC will get rejected. These laws are tightening, and some people who have carried out 200tdi transplants to replace the old 19j TD in a 90 and passed the MOT in the past are now coming unstuck.

Yes, I could carry out a transplant, get all the engineering approvals, modify the paperwork and have it with a TD5 or any other engine I fancy. However, the law here would treat it as a "New" car when it comes to road tax, so the road tax would jump from €30 per year for the VM to about €1000 for an EU3 spec TD5!!! The yearly road tax is based on the year that the car was first registered in Portugal (Or the year that the specification was changed), and not the year it was manufactured.

I am trying to raise exceptions on "best practicable option" based on the fact that the car emissions and fuel economy are better - or due to simple obsolescence. If I succeed, then a monster TD5 it will be! But in the interim, for my daily runaround, I'm considering a VM.

A bit more background - car prices out here are insane, due to the above tax reason, and high car import taxes (A td5 D2 would cost me €22,000 euro in taxes to import) - yes, Portugal is in the EU, and pays millions of euros in fines to the EU each year for maintaining this tax, but hey - for all you who think that the EU solves all these tax problems - it doesn't - this has been going on for 20-plus years - go figure!

For comparison to UK prices. 

A good VM RRC out here is about €6000 - ( I have one in my sights that doesn't have a working engine for €1250 - so would be good value, and make a nice daily driver)

A good 200/300TDi RRC in the region of €10k.

D1 - 2k for a scruffy and corroded 3 door 200tdi  to €10k for a nice 5 door 300tdi.

TD5 D2 - Scruffy and worn out €8k, mint - €20k.

Defenders start at €12k for a 200tdi dog, going up to nice condition TD5 at €20k, TD4's up to €30k

 

And before you ask "why Madeira" - fabulous temperate climate (Never less than 16c, very rarely over 30c - today, 1st Nov, 24c!), more daylight, great food, great people, relaxed lifestyle, cool cars, fabulous customers. Downside - learning Portuguese. Muito Dificile!

 

 

 

 

Edited November 2, 2019 by Captainbeaky

[taurion]

My everyday RRC is a 1987 2 door 2.4td VM which I have been using since 2008 with about 400,000kms on the clock.
I bought it with the usual head gasket/cylinder head problems.I also tow a 3.5t trailer often and I live in the Massif Central in France.

Driven with care it is a good engine with performance as good ( or better) than a tdi. Don't exceed 3000rpm and don't drive foot to the floor for long
periods because the rear cylinder head and gasket will go.
I have a temperature gauge on the rear cylinder head and an exhaust gas temperature gauge. My engine runs at 80° and briefly touches 95° uphill with
the trailer . Over 100° I think there is a big risk for the head and gasket ( my experience). I do not exceed 700° exhaust gas temperature.
I have replaced the original radiator with one from a LR 2.5td (10% wider) fitted a larger intercooler and a separate oil cooler. I tried electric fans
but a working viscous fan is adequate.

I have a one owner 1991 2 door 2.5td VM tidy interior with a big end gone ( low oil) waiting for some welding.
My other RRC tow car is  a 1982 2 door with a 6 cyl VM. It needs to be treated as above and  so far has proved reliable.
The reputation started with the poorly designed cooling system in the 2.4 which was improved considerably with the 2.5. I think the problem
is poor circulation in the block and head and a water pump that could be more efficient.

My experience to date , hope that helps.

[Captainbeaky]

Ok, thanks for that. I’m definitely going to be beefing up the cooling system.

 

I’ve been so busy that the car has been on the back burner, but I’ve just started back on it, so will be carrying out mods along these lines.

[elbekko]

IIRC the main problem with them is that they like to be treated gently until warm - a bit like the BMW diesel in the P38. Not many mods you can do here, except maybe get it to heat up quicker somehow?

No personal experience with them though, just a friend that really likes them.

[Maverik]

Get a Webasto from a Rover 75 plumed in. I use this on my 200tdi most mornings (via a remote) the engine block is already up to 60-70degC before I even start her up, starts and runs much better when pre-warmed.

[KrisDR]

I had a VM 2.5 engine in a Jeep Cherokee. I treated it with velvet gloves just like mentioned above. The youngish guy who bought the car from me blew the engine up after 4000km, he didn't wear any velvet gloves.

[Nonimouse]

The VM 2.5 Rad is capable of taking two more rows with the standard tanks. Not an expensive job.

I love the VM.  I've had 2. Both 2.5

So much low down torque. The Turbo comes in at 1,110 RPM...

I think what kills them is:

a). People expecting V8 performance 

b), Cheap and poor maintenance

The Jeep 2.5 Diesel is essentially the same engine and it doesn't suffer poor maintenance.

Head Gaskets are critical - but if one fails, do all. The without fail, re-torque the head bolts at 1k miles - THIS IS ESSENTIAL

They eat glow plugs for a pastime. And number one is hidden behind the fuel pump - and utter barsteward to get to. They are linked so if one fails, the rest in line don't work. It needs gloplugs . Unlike a 200tdi ,which will start in minus 15, with no glo

Lift the Expansion tank as high as it will go, without hitting the bonnet. Replace the brass RRC one with a transparent 200/300 tank - bigger/higher

Use a really decent 15W40, like Shell Rimula Commercial - then do the changes at 4k; so it's still cleanish

Add an intercooler - bring that Charge temp down. My memories of the one trip to Maderia I was lucky enough to make, was a lack of flat bits. Doesn't need to be huge, but add one. 

I think that's it 

 

[taurion]

The glow plugs are in parallel, but one dead one has the same effect  as a series connection, a difficult start.

The only cylinder head that will come off alone is the front.  The rear might if the bulkhead was not in the way.  The  intermediate heads cannot lift because of lobes that stick out and prevent a vertical lift. Anyway , when you have removed manifolds and fuel injection pipes etc what is six more bolts for a cylinder head or two !

Yes to fitting the bigger 200/300tdi expansion tank.

I have fitted separate oil cooler to both VMs so that the radiator is only cooling water not oil as well. A working viscous fan will keep it cool.  Big electric fans will probably need a bigger alternator and there is not that much space to fit if you want a bigger intercooler as well.

[Nonimouse]

10 hours ago, taurion said:

The glow plugs are in parallel, but one dead one has the same effect  as a series connection, a difficult start.

The only cylinder head that will come off alone is the front.  The rear might if the bulkhead was not in the way.  The  intermediate heads cannot lift because of lobes that stick out and prevent a vertical lift. Anyway , when you have removed manifolds and fuel injection pipes etc what is six more bolts for a cylinder head or two !

Yes to fitting the bigger 200/300tdi expansion tank.

I have fitted separate oil cooler to both VMs so that the radiator is only cooling water not oil as well. A working viscous fan will keep it cool.  Big electric fans will probably need a bigger alternator and there is not that much space to fit if you want a bigger intercooler as well.

Out of interst, have you found a way of making a special tool to remove that fron glo-plug?

[Rallymantony]

Hello peoples

Just come across this page, seems like there's lots of knowledgable minds here.

I've just bought my first VM powered RRC and not quite sure what to expect from it, previously all my RRC have been either 3.5's, 3.9's or 4.2's, also had a 6.2 D which I never should have sold...  

So these VM's seem to be a marmite engine. Mine is in a 92 car and seems fairly healthy, will be ordering a full service kit for it on Monday, anything else I should be looking at replacing/servicing as a matter of course?  Where does everyone get their service items from?  This one will be heading down to southern Italy (once allowed) while towing a reasonable weight, looking at the above comments it seem a good idea to increase the size of the radiator, can anyone point me in the right direction and advise on what other members have found a good replacement?

Many thanks in advance

Keep safe

Tony

[taurion]

Service parts (belts ,filters ) can be cross referenced from a competent motor factor, the parts availability from land rover specialists is getting less now .  Engine parts from VM engine specialist (google ) near Derby or JNL engineering Ltd  Camberley ( UK importer).  They do not know much about the older HR engines but can get the parts.

As above fit a temperature gauge to the rear cylinder head and drive by it. The engine runs at 82°C , do not exceed 95°C and the chances of head or gasket failure are greatly reduced.  Next fit an EGT gauge and do not exceed  700°C. A working viscous fan is up to the job. The 2.5 VM is better cooled than the 2.4 which earned the reputation for the problems.  If you fit a bigger radiator you will have to put the intercooler in front and if you have air con the space is tight. 

After fitting the gauges the ' right foot' is the best solution for a reliable vehicle.......... I tow 2-3tons regularly in the  Massif Central , every journey I go from 200m to 600m altitude several times so it is not flat. 2300rpm in 2nd gear keeps a cooler engine than 1600rpm in 3rd even though it will pull in 3rd happily.

Hope that helps.

[Rallymantony]

That's great Taution thank you..  Soooo..... I'll google this... but how do you fit a gauge to just one cylinder?

 

Thanks so much for the info, really appreciate your help.

[taurion]

Looking from the front of the engine each cylinder  head has a hexagon headed plug on the rh side. It is M20 x 1.5.  The plugs on n°1 & 2 are not easily accessible , n°3 has the water take off for the cold start device and n°4 will probably have an easily accessible plug.  Sometimes the dash temperature sender is installed here instead of by the thermostat housing.  The original dashboard gauge is not of much use when trying to keep a precise eye on engine temperature.

[Rallymantony]

Thank you Taurion, I really appreciate you taking the time. 

Stay safe

[Rallymantony]

On 1/16/2021 at 10:10 PM, taurion said:

Looking from the front of the engine each cylinder  head has a hexagon headed plug on the rh side. It is M20 x 1.5.  The plugs on n°1 & 2 are not easily accessible , n°3 has the water take off for the cold start device and n°4 will probably have an easily accessible plug.  Sometimes the dash temperature sender is installed here instead of by the thermostat housing.  The original dashboard gauge is not of much use when trying to keep a precise eye on engine temperature.

So the RR turned up today.... It's a little (read that as A LOT) worse then I had hoped for but I bought it blind so can't really moan..  I had a quick look at the engine and I found the hex plugs you said about Taurion, the rear one does indeed have  a temp sender already fitted so assume that this feeds the original dash temp gauge.  My question is, should I move the original back to the thermostat housing and feed a second gauge from the rear cylinder?

Sorry for all the questions............  

[taurion]

The dash gauge gives a general idea of temp, you need something more precise and reliable.  I have  52mm Stack gauges in my RRCs VDO or Smiths would do equally well, have a look at  Merlin  Motorsport or Demon Tweeks to see what is available.

I hope you have a vehicle without too many problems, having said that all problems can be solved. I'm sure you will have more questions but you will be wiser afterwards......

[sesmith72]

Where does the VM Diesel pick up a signal for the tachometer?  From the Alternator?  Pictures appreciated 

[Nonimouse]

Alternator - sadly no pictures